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  • #22,981
  • Sep 26, 2023 8:35pm Sep 26, 2023 8:35pm
Quoting Trader191
{quote} 0%. to much more cheap to just kick out biggest professional traders, rest unprofessional traders you can let inside because you know what will happen or use some for marketing. and all rest money that comes in is your win without costs. its just a simple business, no complex thing to calculate here. there is higher chance they open a fund with this total good traders by speak directly with them. but why they should do this work against earn more easy with this simple already running business model? maybe as add on, total out of the risk...
And you have good traders and win 20% of the profit.
And copy that traders and win 100% of profit.
  • #22,982
  • Sep 26, 2023 8:46pm Sep 26, 2023 8:46pm
Quoting Tim_isoara
{quote} And you have good traders and win 20% of the profit. And copy that traders and win 100% of profit.
prop companies have so many bad traders (even when they have wins) in, the good do really different and trade own accounts or funds and so on. this people in prop you will not copy if you are not crazy! this risk would be extrem, and why take risk when you have sure wins?

just allow some people have wins and pay them for marketing (the rare extrem winners kick out, you see easy who is with a chance professional when you see someone trading 2 month), when you have many more losses from traders that compensate for this. just so easy business. but in reality professional traders will not be in prop, not what you call here prop by this name with funding challenges.
  • #22,983
  • Sep 26, 2023 9:54pm Sep 26, 2023 9:54pm
Quoting Trader191
{quote} prop companies have so many bad traders (even when they have wins) in, the good do really different and trade own accounts or funds and so on. this people in prop you will not copy if you are not crazy! this risk would be extrem, and why take risk when you have sure wins? just allow some people have wins and pay them for marketing (the rare extrem winners kick out, you see easy who is with a chance professional when you see someone trading 2 month), when you have many more losses from traders that compensate for this. just so easy business....
A lot of traders are more than 6 month on a funded account and make profit every month...
And prop firm pay every month...
Think about this...
  • #22,984
  • Sep 26, 2023 11:36pm Sep 26, 2023 11:36pm
Quoting Trader191
{quote} 0%. to much more cheap to just kick out biggest professional traders, rest unprofessional traders you can let inside because you know what will happen or use some for marketing. and all rest money that comes in is your win without costs. its just a simple business, no complex thing to calculate here. there is higher chance they open a fund with this total good traders by speak directly with them. but why they should do this work against earn more easy with this simple already running business model? maybe as add on, total out of the risk...
the thing that i dont like about all of this, is that this industry became virtual on paper as well as in practise: the margins are so good on traders that loose that prop firms dont even have to basically connect their top traders to A book broker and trade their own funds. Like makes no sense.

If more firms did exactly that by being... you know actual prop firms... the payout problems would never happen, and we would not need to care about ONLY FTMO or MFF
  • #22,985
  • Sep 27, 2023 1:25am Sep 27, 2023 1:25am
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Well, except for Angelo. But he did have to send an email to his payout "team" to work through the weekend while he was enjoying his sausage fest at the beach with his boy toy friends.
They may be working during the weekend but probably they will be playing cards because the great leader of the industry forgot to update them about whatever he decided.

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  • #22,986
  • Sep 27, 2023 1:27am Sep 27, 2023 1:27am
I am fairly certain the solution to this discussion is not a book or b book but some sort of quant startegy that can find alpha in a larger portion of the order flow.

but that also means you need to make trading conditions as real as possible and likely ban news trading due to lack of liquidity
  • #22,987
  • Sep 27, 2023 2:13am Sep 27, 2023 2:13am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} They may be working during the weekend but probably they will be playing cards because the great leader of the industry forgot to update them about whatever he decided. {image}
Poor peons on the frontlines getting dumped on while Angelo wines and dines his bootlicker buddies
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #22,988
  • Sep 27, 2023 2:29am Sep 27, 2023 2:29am
Lamboraul up today. Testimony submitted about him scamming people with passing EA for his own company.
  • #22,989
  • Sep 27, 2023 3:06am Sep 27, 2023 3:06am
Quoting Takisd
I am fairly certain the solution to this discussion is not a book or b book but some sort of quant startegy that can find alpha in a larger portion of the order flow. but that also means you need to make trading conditions as real as possible and likely ban news trading due to lack of liquidity
As Bespoke Agent TrAndy1 has alluded to, it's all currently a raffle ticket business, Bespoke actors also have a history to this scam industry Luxury Holiday Raffles Ltd, Standout Competitions Ltd these have been struck off the register,.. no coincidence.
Their other business MegagramFX Ltd has never made a profit and has no net worth. They have two other companies linked to them which are also dissolved.

Bespoke will be due to report their accounts soon and so far the history of these people is that they don't last. Let's see if:
A. They've made profit B. Set aside revenues to pay taxes(after they've took any profits) C. Have their GDPR process cast iron and set in stone (for US folk this is UK and EU Data Protection) D. Have a VERY robust reporting regimen for money laundering/fraud for payments made outside of the UK (and no you can't blame your KYC provider in court as the judge simply won't understand...).

The Prop model may or may not change but it's evident it needs to if it is going to evolve out of the swamp.
  • #22,990
  • Edited 4:31am Sep 27, 2023 4:19am | Edited 4:31am
Quoting Tim_isoara
{quote} A lot of traders are more than 6 month on a funded account and make profit every month... And prop firm pay every month... Think about this...
of course there are small win traders there. how many you know who make millions any year by this like professional traders do in most years? think about it!

good traders need 2 things to get pay from prop (very good do not use it because can win much more much more easy):
- a strategy that at least has a chance to win often enough in some parts of 10 years
- enough other traders need to pay and lose the challenges, or they will not get 1 cent. winners get payment from lost challenges from other traders, not from any wins done by their trading. that is total different to real trading, its a total different separate copy market with other rules, they only copy the interbank prices to simulate it in same way, but you get not pay what other lose in your own trades like in real market.

always learn why you have a win and get a payment (so all rules), that is very important.
that is a total important step in trader development to understand this (difference between trading games like prop and b-book brokers against a-book against STP against ECN), this helps extrem in finding edges and get very successful. prop (like is discussed here, not real prop of course ) is just a trading game, only the name and some rules changed, but people often do not recognize and so come to wrong solutions or opinions about . nothing is bad about this, there are smaller traders or trading styles with no real edge that profit from such prop / b-book "trading games". any disadvantage has always advantages too, only important that you know that its the advantage you use and the disadvantages you avoid (that is total different for any trader and trading style).
  • #22,991
  • Sep 27, 2023 4:22am Sep 27, 2023 4:22am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} MFF was like 0.1 during market and 0.5 EU/AP no other firm has better spread on US500 then FTMO afaik but i reviewed only a few. The closest seem to be The Trading Pit with 0.35 and maybe MFFX (Think Markets) with 0.4
Amazing. Just now that I needed MFF.... who knows they come back at some point.

0.4 is too much, at least FTMO is 28, I'm used with icmarkets at 0.20 now, 0.10 was a bargain.

i have see in MFF the german DAX at 0 spread many times and also oil sometime was zero, hard to believe. Real scam?
in holiday till end of November
  • #22,992
  • Sep 27, 2023 4:24am Sep 27, 2023 4:24am
Quoting ashark69
{quote} btw how is FXIFY in general? do they actually pay? i saw some drama in their discord like 2-3 days ago, was hilarious. I was thinking they are legit for a sec, at least that is a claim as long as you select crypto as your payout method, otherwise it seems to be more like a titanic
somebody said here is good, unfortunately still have no time too add them in the spreadsheet, I will try to do in this weekend!

any other name came out? this thread activity is exploded and I cannot read so many pages

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
in holiday till end of November
  • #22,993
  • Sep 27, 2023 5:11am Sep 27, 2023 5:11am
Quoting ashark69
the margins are so good on traders that loose that prop firms dont even have to basically connect their top traders to A book broker and trade their own funds. Like makes no sense. If more firms did exactly that by being... you know actual prop firms... the payout problems would never happen, and we would not need to care about ONLY FTMO or MFF
-Maybe, but qualifying would be much, much more involved and time-consuming, and once funded, if you violate draw-down allowances, then you might be permanently removed from ever trying again, unlike remote prop.

For most, the remote prop model was a way to fast-track capital accumulation. Having to prove yourself for 6+ months would not be very worthwhile for many, nor could most traders probably hold an account for that long. Typically, it would require some kind of trading license as well, which most traders probably don't already have, so that could be added time on top of the 6+ months in order to qualify.

I believe that there is room for the remote prop industry, and that it can coexist along side traditional prop and brokerages etc.. The unique nature of the model is (or was) providing a much-needed service in this space. It seems likely that regulators would disagree. As a result, these props may look for new ways (or geographical regions) to operate.

I do not believe that there should be so many firms, however. This only dilutes the payout pool and increases scam activity. It would be better to have just a handful of firms; just enough to force firms to remain competitive and to not get complacent (or scammy) to the point that services begin to degrade over time.
  • #22,994
  • Sep 27, 2023 5:36am Sep 27, 2023 5:36am
I know for a fact that there is one prop firm, now unable to do business, that has a system that’s not a or b book that works.

ironic

retail traders in general are subject to alpha decay if they have alpha to begin with. But the decay in prop firms is slower than brokers due to the higher sizes to obtain goals. There are ways to generate alpha from this data and I know one company has completed that in august and as far as I am aware it’s the only one.

I was part of the data analytics team (nothing to do with the strategy itself) where we cross compared market depth at liquidity with results of said system to make sure it was projecting fake alpha. It worked, very well.
  • #22,995
  • Sep 27, 2023 5:50am Sep 27, 2023 5:50am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Maybe, but qualifying would be much, much more involved and time-consuming, and once funded, if you violate draw-down allowances, then you might be permanently removed from ever trying again, unlike remote prop. For most, the remote prop model was a way to fast-track capital accumulation. Having to prove yourself for 6+ months would not be very worthwhile for many, nor could most traders probably hold an account for that long. Typically, it would require some kind of trading license as well, which most traders probably don't already have,...
Agree regarding the amount of prop firms: from one perspective competition is good as it lowers prices significantly for us, from the other we dont know whom to trust like you said it yourself. Man it seriously sucks that from all possible companies they had to go after MFF, its surreal, my 600k funded account gone too, fun, now its a gamble to try and choose from bunch of clowns
  • #22,996
  • Sep 27, 2023 6:27am Sep 27, 2023 6:27am
Quoting Takisd
...the decay in prop firms is slower than brokers due to the higher sizes to obtain goals..
That there is a gem of an insight. What is in effect infinite leverage is the major value add of props to retail. And for the prop firms, per generating alpha within a compound retail environment, I'd wager buy-sell side size magnitude and differentials speak to trend strength and turning points..
  • #22,997
  • Sep 27, 2023 6:28am Sep 27, 2023 6:28am
Quoting ashark69
Man it seriously sucks that from all possible companies they had to go after MFF, its surreal
-Indeed. But not surprising. MFF was within their reach and easily accessible. They were undoubtedly the largest prop firm in this space. Taking them down would not only secure the largest potential payout for the CFTC, but would also provide the necessary leverage that would help them to clean house on the remaining firms, should they win.

The CFTC also probably knew that creating issues with payment processors and making such bold claims in their objective statement, that many remaining firms would likely panic, resulting in poor decisions that would cause greater exposure to their firms, making them easier targets to pursue.

I can only speculate, really.
  • #22,998
  • Sep 27, 2023 6:47am Sep 27, 2023 6:47am
After waiting whole week for wise withdrawal (very small amount) with FXIFY today i asked for PayPal withdrawal. There was no contact from their site, and since last Tuesday i cannot trade. Never had problems with wise, so for me they just use eny excuse thay can to delay payment. Anyone making withdrawal from them don't use wise, will update if I receive PayPal withdrawal today.
  • #22,999
  • Sep 27, 2023 6:48am Sep 27, 2023 6:48am
Quoting youngD
After waiting whole week for wise withdrawal (very small amount) with FXIFY today i asked for PayPal withdrawal. There was no contact from their site, and since last Tuesday i cannot trade. Never had problems with wise, so for me they just use eny excuse thay can to delay payment. Anyone making withdrawal from them don't use wise, will update if I receive PayPal withdrawal today.
Wise is blocking prop firms, better use Crypto or paypal, let us know if u receive your payout
  • #23,000
  • Sep 27, 2023 6:48am Sep 27, 2023 6:48am
Quoting ashark69
{quote} Agree regarding the amount of prop firms: from one perspective competition is good as it lowers prices significantly for us, from the other we dont know whom to trust like you said it yourself. Man it seriously sucks that from all possible companies they had to go after MFF, its surreal, my 600k funded account gone too, fun, now its a gamble to try and choose from bunch of clowns
I legit believe MFF will be back and your 600k will be fine in the long run. As for the others, case by case basis. My reason for my thinking is their legal representation. I don’t think it will end with MFF disappears. It will end with MFF discloses gets a rape like fine and settles. With damage having been done.
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