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  • #15,741
  • May 17, 2023 12:24pm May 17, 2023 12:24pm
Quoting LehmanBrotha
is there any prop firm out there that actually copies trades from great traders, or is it just basically a massive Ponzi funded by losers?
-Probably MFF. Maybe FTMO. But copying good traders should only be a small source of revenue for these firms. Any good firm will have multiple streams of revenue to support their model, and MFF seems to have that. MFF is, by far, in the best position to survive over the long-term, more than any other firm in my opinion. They have recently expanded the scope of their offerings, but it may be difficult to determine at this point whether it will serve the company in a positive way or not.

FTMO has been hinting at something for a long time now, but still no news, as of yet.

I believe that there may be a lot more that these firms can do to generate additional revenue streams.

As pipmaster77 pointed out, you can usually spot the ones that are serious about operating long-term, vs. the ones that are simply running nothing but a ponzi. I think that this should carry weight when deciding on which firm(s) to invest your time and money into.
  • #15,742
  • May 17, 2023 12:35pm May 17, 2023 12:35pm
In any case, I think that traders might be wise to keep in the back of their mind that the opportunity that these firms currently offer may not be around forever (or follow the same model), and that diversification is paramount. The traders that are setting themselves up with future income streams will likely fare the best, in my opinion, especially if they have not already established anything.
  • #15,743
  • May 17, 2023 12:42pm May 17, 2023 12:42pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Yea, I haven't even considered FTMO for nearly 2 years now. Their prices aren't remotely competitive. The only thing they offer is a solid payout history. I mean their 10K challenge is $168. Seriously? Everyone else is around $100. With The Funded Muppets (Traders) 50% discount coupon you can get a 10K for $68.
I agree. It is simply where I started, as none of these others even existed. Like I said, if starting today, I'd start elsewhere. I don't have any issues with them, never have, but as you stated, they simply aren't competitive.
  • #15,744
  • May 17, 2023 12:47pm May 17, 2023 12:47pm
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} His feed is nothing more then promo's to reel people in. See for yourself: https://twitter.com/andrew_nfx {image}
If the email from FTMO is real it doesn't matter who he is or what he does.

What's important here is the message from FTMO that he, on May 3rd, had 160 lots of EURUSD and FTMO doesn't want it (despite this is not against their objective rules - only against their subjective rules).

If they don't want this kind of risk they can implement objective rules like other companies, such as less leverage, lot limit size, 50% daily DD in a single instrument (like Finotive), not able to lose more than X% in a single trade, no grid trading or martingale if that's the case (but defining the concepts of grid and martingale, not like the idiots of BeSpoke), no news trading ever (not sure if this account allowed or not), etc.

So, there are objective rules for FTMO to avoid it. FTMO just doesn't want them because they know they will lose some business to competition.
  • #15,745
  • May 17, 2023 1:14pm May 17, 2023 1:14pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote}I agree. It is simply where I started, as none of these others even existed. Like I said, if starting today, I'd start elsewhere. I don't have any issues with them, never have, but as you stated, they simply aren't competitive.
Same here.

Started with them like 4 years ago as they were the only firm I felt I could trust. I don't have any issues with them either but their prices especially on the lower end are obnoxious.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #15,746
  • Edited 2:14pm May 17, 2023 1:33pm | Edited 2:14pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} If the email from FTMO is real it doesn't matter who he is or what he does. What's important here is the message from FTMO that he, on May 3rd, had 160 lots of EURUSD and FTMO doesn't want it (despite this is not against their objective rules - only against their subjective rules). If they don't want this kind of risk they can implement objective rules like other companies, such as less leverage, lot limit size, 50% daily DD in a single instrument (like Finotive), not able to lose more than X% in a single trade, no grid trading or martingale...
Here I would agree with FTMO, I think FTMO request is reasonable. maybe they copy live account trades. Here is the FTMO's letter the trader posted on twitter
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  • #15,747
  • May 17, 2023 1:41pm May 17, 2023 1:41pm
Quoting Capablanca
Stolen from prop group. FTMO warning a guy that he is using too much leverage {image} {image} Obviously he is dealing with an absurd leverage. But it's some sort of stupid to provide an enormous amount of leverage and them claiming that he is using too much of what is allowed by themselves.
Would be good to know how much equity he actually had and how much he risked.
  • #15,748
  • Edited 2:16pm May 17, 2023 1:55pm | Edited 2:16pm
Quoting Boulder
{quote} Here I would agree with FTMO, I think FTMO request is reasonable. Here is the letter the trader posted on twitter {image}
I had some experience with FTMO two years ago while I first traded my live $200k account, one morning I was trading very aggressively 25 to 35 lots longing EurUsd when Eur moving quick with some type news coming out that I was not aware ( not very smart me) , I didn't have hard stop on my trades but I did have visual stop and money management EA on. it would close all my trades if my account hit certain %.

The news came out, Eur started to drop, out of blue, my account was fully hedged not by me. FTMO fully hedged my account with shorting, I was shocked at that moment, of course, I flat the shorts with some profit shortly , thanks to FTMO, let my own trades to work out later.

From that day, I realized FTMO has some sort of risk management on their system to manage live accounts.
I read this happened to someone else before, I didn't believe it till this happened to me too.
Since then. I always have hard stops on all my trades in live accounts ...
  • #15,749
  • May 17, 2023 2:13pm May 17, 2023 2:13pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} If the email from FTMO is real it doesn't matter who he is or what he does. What's important here is the message from FTMO that he, on May 3rd, had 160 lots of EURUSD and FTMO doesn't want it (despite this is not against their objective rules - only against their subjective rules). If they don't want this kind of risk they can implement objective rules like other companies, such as less leverage, lot limit size, 50% daily DD in a single instrument (like Finotive), not able to lose more than X% in a single trade, no grid trading or martingale...
I agree to a point, but people need to realize who’s really in charge, and it’s not the trader. Most of these clowns would never make it through a traditional brick and mortar prop firm. Yet they feel because they paid an entrance fee the firm owes them everything. Then they scream like toddlers when they don’t get their way.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #15,750
  • May 17, 2023 2:16pm May 17, 2023 2:16pm
Quoting Nsak3y
In any case, I think that traders might be wise to keep in the back of their mind that the opportunity that these firms currently offer may not be around forever (or follow the same model), and that diversification is paramount. The traders that are setting themselves up with future income streams will likely fare the best, in my opinion, especially if they have not already established anything.
Exactly, even at traditional prop firms most successful ones don’t hang around for too long. They take their winnings to fund their own accounts.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #15,751
  • May 17, 2023 4:19pm May 17, 2023 4:19pm
Quoting Boulder
{quote} Here I would agree with FTMO, I think FTMO request is reasonable. maybe they copy live account trades. Here is the FTMO's letter the trader posted on twitter {image}
But why is the request reasonable ? If leverage and lot size allows 160 EURUSD lots he's just having whatever FTMO allows.

In which circumstances would 160 lots be OK for FTMO ? If never, then there should be rule(s) to prevent that. If OK under some circumstances, then these should be translated into objective rules.

I think they not naïve to think that someone is going 160 lots long EURUSD and hedging that with 159 short EURUSD.

So the real question to me here is: why does FTMO allow 160 lots on EURUSD if they think is too risky ?!
  • #15,752
  • May 17, 2023 4:25pm May 17, 2023 4:25pm
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} I agree to a point, but people need to realize who’s really in charge, and it’s not the trader. Most of these clowns would never make it through a traditional brick and mortar prop firm. Yet they feel because they paid an entrance fee the firm owes them everything. Then they scream like toddlers when they don’t get their way.
Comparison with real prop is not adequate here because this is a circus industry, as we all know.

No real prop would allow an unknown guy to walk into their door and trade 160 EURUSD lot. In that sense I'm not sure who the clown is here. If the guy screaming on twitter or FTMO allowing such a stupidity.
  • #15,753
  • May 17, 2023 4:39pm May 17, 2023 4:39pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} But why is the request reasonable ? If leverage and lot size allows 160 EURUSD lots he's just having whatever FTMO allows. In which circumstances would 160 lots be OK for FTMO ? If never, then there should be rule(s) to prevent that. If OK under some circumstances, then these should be translated into objective rules. I think they not naïve to think that someone is going 160 lots long EURUSD and hedging that with 159 short EURUSD. So the real question to me here is: why does FTMO allow 160 lots on EURUSD if they think is too risky ?!
I forgot what term is for that, I heard some traders did exactly like that, they go big on one broker account, hedging the big lots in another broker account, try to gain big profit that is forbidden in prop once the brokers find out, the traders won’t get paid.
  • #15,754
  • May 17, 2023 5:21pm May 17, 2023 5:21pm
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} is there any prop firm out there that actually copies trades from great traders, or is it just basically a massive Ponzi funded by losers?
My funded FX CEO Explains how they copy trades.
Inserted Video
  • #15,755
  • Edited 9:21pm May 17, 2023 8:45pm | Edited 9:21pm
Quoting Capablanca
But why is the request reasonable ? If leverage and lot size allows 160 EURUSD lots he's just having whatever FTMO allows.
-I understand your point. They technically do have rules against it, but the rules are just not clearly defined. This needs to change. I think that it is a reasonable request because they are just giving him a warning in lieu of terminating his account.

I think, just because something is possible, does not make it wise. We must use commonsense, I think. After all, it is better to have the leverage if you need it, but not to abuse it. This is the difference. But again, I understand your sentiment, fully.
  • #15,756
  • Edited 9:20pm May 17, 2023 8:52pm | Edited 9:20pm
Quoting Capablanca
this is a circus industry, as we all know.
-Yes. We accept certain things as a trade-off. But that does not mean that we should just put up with nonsense. FTMO should clarify their rule. Playing the risk card whenever it is convenient for them (and ignoring it when it is not) does not work.
  • #15,757
  • May 18, 2023 7:42am May 18, 2023 7:42am
Quoting Boulder
{quote} I forgot what term is for that, I heard some traders did exactly like that, they go big on one broker account, hedging the big lots in another broker account, try to gain big profit that is forbidden in prop once the brokers find out, the traders won’t get paid.
I doubt they have proofs of reverse trading with another firm. I would be very surprised if they had proof of that and didn't ban him immediately.

So, the point still stand. We give you the power to trade 160 lots but you can't do it because we don't like it.

I even wonder when/in which circumstances does FTMO like 160 lots ?
  • #15,758
  • May 18, 2023 7:44am May 18, 2023 7:44am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I understand your point. They technically do have rules against it, but the rules are just not clearly defined. This needs to change. I think that it is a reasonable request because they are just giving him a warning in lieu of terminating his account. I think, just because something is possible, does not make it wise. We must use commonsense, I think. After all, it is better to have the leverage if you need it, but not to abuse it. This is the difference. But again, I understand your sentiment, fully.
Well, the reason why we have laws is because common sense is not enough. Otherwise we would not need laws at all.

In companies it's the same with rules (clear rules). But again, in which circumstances would be acceptable for FTMO to have 160 lots ? That's an answer I would like to have answered.
  • #15,759
  • May 18, 2023 7:53am May 18, 2023 7:53am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Well, the reason why we have laws is because common sense is not enough. Otherwise we would not need laws at all. In companies it's the same with rules (clear rules). But again, in which circumstances would be acceptable for FTMO to have 160 lots ? That's an answer I would like to have answered.
When you are either a. failing the challenge or b. blowing your live account
  • #15,760
  • Edited 8:58am May 18, 2023 8:34am | Edited 8:58am
say a trader has 2 funded accounts at 2 different prop firms. in 1 account goes only long and on the other only short in same time. i don t understand what the issues is. first off, i dunno if the firms can exchange clients data let alone current positions. and even so, what is the matter? what are the rules being broken here?

also regarding leverage. like some of u guys have already mentioned, it is what it s being advertised, right? it says on the can when u buy the challenge that u have 100x1 for instance. i haven t seen a rule that says u cannot use the full leverage even tho that s what they offer. the want to pay out few thousand dollars here, few there but make hundreds of thousands on fees.... then advertise 30x1 leverage or less like Mentfx for instance and watch ur stream of income fees go down the drain. they know this, they just cannot say it out loud. of course i ain t encouraging traders to go full margin once funded but as long as that is the buying power u provide i just don t see the justification for such crappy emails. regardless if that dude who posted the email is fishing for likes or views or whatever. if that email is real, then in my eyes it s a crappy thing to do. how do we think that those large payouts are made? by trading half a lot? if 1 has money to throw away and just wants to gamble once funded, it s free to do so. right?
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