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  • #1,261
  • Nov 17, 2022 7:11pm Nov 17, 2022 7:11pm
Quoting ryuryu
{quote} Since I'm using ultra high leverage in my trading I'm not interested in guessing or prediction. If I see the wall I'll exit immediately.
Can you post 1 picture of what you consider a wall. I know it is subjective however i want to replicate your process with CME data. How much wall should distinguished it should be from the rest.

All i want is risk more, but i need sth new for that. I see your use of Cluster is limited to orderbook, whch is great. Or am i wrong ?
  • #1,262
  • Nov 17, 2022 7:19pm Nov 17, 2022 7:19pm
Quoting kk100
funher stuu i misss your shitters chnagers all muther gather, Rickand Ryan Fullle dyuing lve
B..ch i do not have time to be alarmed you wrote some new shit. Please be kind enough to deliver sth valuable or stop wasting my time. Why would i want or anybody else to waste time on you. You want to impress me - give me some knowledge. Otherwise - you know better...
  • #1,263
  • Nov 17, 2022 8:30pm Nov 17, 2022 8:30pm
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} Can you post 1 picture of what you consider a wall. I know it is subjective however i want to replicate your process with CME data. How much wall should distinguished it should be from the rest. All i want is risk more, but i need sth new for that. I see your use of Cluster is limited to orderbook, whch is great. Or am i wrong ?
Hi ffpriceactio

If I can just make a quick comment about the Wall in my opinion.

The limit orders on Crypto exchanges are heavily weighted on to the top two levels of the order book which gives the effect of a thick wall of orders on the top but its shallow of orders underneath. This is why Ryu and myself call the Crypto order book a WALL.

Looking at the orderbook on CME markets, the wall is not present as the orders tend to be scattered more evenly throughout the first 10 rows of the book.

Therefore we need to trade the order book on Crypto & forex / indices very differently.

Cheers
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,264
  • Nov 17, 2022 8:45pm Nov 17, 2022 8:45pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Hi ffpriceactio If I can just make a quick comment about the Wall in my opinion. The limit orders on Crypto exchanges are heavily weighted on to the top two levels of the order book which gives the effect of a thick wall of orders on the top but its shallow of orders underneath. This is why Ryu and myself call the Crypto order book a WALL. Looking at the orderbook on CME markets, the wall is not present as the orders tend to be scattered more evenly throughout the first 10 rows of the book. Therefore we need to trade the order book on Crypto...
That is what i observed as to fx. I will dig into some basic patterns SSI is marketing.

Sorry for last post, M.
  • #1,265
  • Edited 10:16pm Nov 17, 2022 9:03pm | Edited 10:16pm
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} That is what i observed as to fx. I will dig into some basic patterns SSI is marketing. Sorry for last post, M.
KK100 is like our Janitor here, if anyone makes a coffee strain on the table or doesn’t put the rubbish out - KK sorts it out for us.

I traded with Kari in Zoltans Discord room a couple of years back, good trader.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,266
  • Edited 11:18am Nov 18, 2022 6:38am | Edited 11:18am
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} Can you post 1 picture of what you consider a wall. I know it is subjective however i want to replicate your process with CME data. How much wall should distinguished it should be from the rest. All i want is risk more, but i need sth new for that. I see your use of Cluster is limited to orderbook, whch is great. Or am i wrong ?
The size of the wall depends on what you want to do.

For example.

You have a position with 100 lot size. It is in profit.
And then you see, than the price hit the wall and eating it slowly. But your TP is inside the wall, or under the wall.

What to do? At this point you must decide what to do.

For example, remember your size is 100, and back to "no profit" is 80. Then if you hit close you will fill 80 in profit and the rest in loss.
Or you see, that there are 12345 lots back, so there will be no risk to close it.

or you can decide to wait. But in 99% cases the price will eat the wall and then bounce back. So you was in profit, you could close and get your $$$, but now you are in loss and now you can have next week trying to recover.

What will you choose? I always choose "money in the pocket".


p.s. it works on crypto, never saw the "wall" on CME. May be because of min lot size. Imagine min lot size is 100000$! There are 800 lots max size on XAU (we call it good volume).
Observer effect
  • #1,267
  • Nov 19, 2022 2:18am Nov 19, 2022 2:18am
Quoting ryuryu
Regarding the question what to do with that? I prefer start to trade when the pain already gone. Because the whale will do the same - it will start to close the positions. RickM prefer to jump-in with the whale.
Ah! I get the idea now, thanks! As for the mechanics, I'm not so sure. These price moves seem to pause and then continue or come in two or three waves quite often. If I try to fade them, I'm getting stopped out often enough that I'm back to treading water... not good.

I think I'll take a closer look at your bot, I'm not that happy to do this manually anyway. Staring at a screen for two hours and then missing the move because you make coffee (or the opposite) isn't fun.
  • #1,268
  • Nov 20, 2022 7:10am Nov 20, 2022 7:10am
My workspace looks like this


Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 66 KB


On the left I have a bot that will run top coin. It must be >0.35% distance and >200.000$ per minute in volume.
Next the dashboard, it make all the calculations.
And then one for fun: how much BTC and other coins dropped already.
On bottom I have htop running to see if everything is ok.

As you see there are scripts named 50_dash_sqlite.py - that one saves live trades data to the database.
Next one calles 50_dash_sqlite.py - that one for calculations and drawing the table with data.


So the logic is this: trade only coins with good volume. Trade with small sizes like 0.01x (100 times less than 1x). But trade 24x7 with no interruption.
In this case you can easy make 2-3% daily with no risk at all.

The key here is only math and vol. Nothing more. No predictions, no shit
Observer effect
  • #1,269
  • Nov 21, 2022 2:21am Nov 21, 2022 2:21am
Nice clean setup. You just need a darkmode switch for tmux

Do you get all the info from Bybit and Binance APIs? I'm not very familiar with Python, looks like I have some learning to do...

Quoting ryuryu
In this case you can easy make 2-3% daily with no risk at all.
Uh what? Your current trade shows -0.02% - let me see if I understand this: you sold 0.02 ETHUSD at 1207.65, current Ask is 1207.85, you have a buy limit at 1207.05 to close your short. Who said at this point in time that ETH ever sells at 1207.05 again? Where would you have closed this position for a loss?
  • #1,270
  • Edited 11:11am Nov 21, 2022 10:03am | Edited 11:11am
Quoting FatO
Nice clean setup. You just need a darkmode switch for tmux Do you get all the info from Bybit and Binance APIs? I'm not very familiar with Python, looks like I have some learning to do... {quote} Uh what? Your current trade shows -0.02% - let me see if I understand this: you sold 0.02 ETHUSD at 1207.65, current Ask is 1207.85, you have a buy limit at 1207.05 to close your short. Who said at this point in time that ETH ever sells at 1207.05 again? Where would you have closed this position for a loss?
I'm not using black background ever, my eyes start bleeding if it dark

Yes I'm taking all the data from bybit and binance APIs. You have to learn some coding. I prefer python for that.

On my screenshot I already have 3.91% profit. Also first entry doesn't matter much. Bot will add more if needed. But remember that I'm using bot to trade, so it will never close in loss. I can't allow it to do it. Because if so then someday it will ruin your balance because of code error. So it will close in profit or will stop trading and send me tg message like "hey, dude, my leverage is 1x, I have no more bullets, please take a look".

Regarding to close: I made some logic I call it " Deleverage mode". Since English is not my native may be this is wrong naming, don't know. But the logic is that: if position us profit > then the fees and PNL is positive bot will start closing the position partially, using market orders. Because if that happening then that mean you have reached "the wall" And better to decrease your position or even close it.

I think I posted that somewhere, but can repeat. I have some rules I follow in trading.
The rules are:
1. Do not use bot to simulate human trade.
2. Use what hidden.

1. For example. Can you trade on 1h tf? Yes. Then do not use bot to trade on 1h tf. Can you trade on 1m? No. So use bot for that.
Can you calculate fast how much you must add if you have X position size at X price and now price is Y and you want your position to be at Z? Nope. Then that is what your bot must do.

2. Volume is hidden. Recent trades are hidden. Use it. Candles are shown - do not use it. Orderbook is shown - do not use it. Etc etc.
Observer effect
  • #1,271
  • Nov 23, 2022 11:30am Nov 23, 2022 11:30am
I have added min trading quantity based in $

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 31 KB

Why?

Because what is the purpose to trade a coin with min 11$ if there are coin that cost 0.08$ per lot size?

See why?
Observer effect
  • #1,272
  • Nov 24, 2022 12:22pm Nov 24, 2022 12:22pm
Quoting ryuryu
I'm not using black background ever, my eyes start bleeding if it dark
Different folks, different strokes I guess. I'm a night owl, I like my screens in dark, muted, yellowy colours.


Quoting ryuryu
You have to learn some coding. I prefer python for that.
Fine for me. I'm more or less fluent in a few other programming languages, Python seems to be not too difficult to pick up so far.

Quoting ryuryu
"hey, dude, my leverage is 1x, I have no more bullets, please take a look".
Now that's an interesting perspective. Most people consider 1x boring, for you it's the upper limit. I'll need some time to think about this. When (not if) you get this message, you'll be deep under water with your position, but nowhere close to liquidation probably... What's your plan for this situation? How do you get out of this hole?

Quoting ryuryu
Since English is not my native may be this is wrong naming, don't know.
Yeah don't worry about that. It's not my first language either and I understand what you write just fine.
  • #1,273
  • Nov 25, 2022 5:49am Nov 25, 2022 5:49am
Quoting FatO
When (not if) you get this message, you'll be deep under water with your position, but nowhere close to liquidation probably... What's your plan for this situation? How do you get out of this hole?
It depends what asset I trade. For example if I trade BTC then there is no liquidation price for 1x short (due to perpetual contract math). So literally you lose nothing even if the price will jump +100%. So you will never lose. For example you can just start closing your position with same (opposite) logic. And get few $ even.

Another situation if you have 1x with XRP for example. Here it is more complicated task. But in fact if you start your trading journey with 0.005x it is barely impossible to stuck at 1x. Also I'm using deleverage logic and it reduce the position size.
And also usually you don't trade with 1 coin, you trade with 1-3 at once. So you can check your profit and decide if you can just close manually in loss. For example today I have 0.435% profit, so if I have 1x on XRP today, I'll immediately close it. Because 1x and 0.4% distance is loss = 0.4% loss (in fact more). Then why bother with that?
Anyway it all depends on too many thing to create some static rule.
Observer effect
  • #1,274
  • Nov 26, 2022 6:57pm Nov 26, 2022 6:57pm
Quoting RickM
{quote} Below is an example of the order book on XRPUSDT, you can see the Buyers were stacking orders at the to of the book and recent sales were strongly Bullish THEREFORE only Buy on a Bullish Delta flip PROVIDING the Order Book agrees. {image} {image}
Great explanation IMHO.
-You enter with market order when there is a momentum.
-You must have building wall of market orders (WALL) behind your back, orders in same direction with your market order direction.
-Delta shows market orders which is in control. Delta is your momentum.
-If Delta momentum has no effect on price you assume - absorption by limit orders. Only in this situation you take limit orders into account and OHLC. Overall you basically ignore limit orders (resting orders) on either side. You ignore limit orders which may stop you, and limit orders which may support you.
-If Delta momentum is against WALL you assume it is stop loss cascade - ingineered. Quick entry with momentum, take profit, possibly even reverse.
-If Delta momentum comply with WALL you assume it is shift in market structure.

Please confirm RickM is it correct ?

If opposite absorption is observed, and WALL is compliant with you direction - what is your decision ?

Have you ever observed through lenses of vertical volume profile - high volume node, low volume node ?
  • #1,275
  • Nov 26, 2022 10:38pm Nov 26, 2022 10:38pm
Quoting ffpriceactio
{quote} Great explanation IMHO. -You enter with market order when there is a momentum. -You must have building wall of market orders (WALL) behind your back, orders in same direction with your market order direction. -Delta shows market orders which is in control. Delta is your momentum. -If Delta momentum has no effect on price you assume - absorption by limit orders. Only in this situation you take limit orders into account and OHLC. Overall you basically ignore limit orders (resting orders) on either side. You ignore limit orders which may stop...
Hi ffpriceactio

You enter with market order when there is a momentum.

I follow market orders always looking to enter if I see momentum - the actual ENTRY may be rejection of an untick in a bearish momentum move, it may be a Complete Auction during a bearish momentum move or of course just jumping in with strong Market Order sales.

You must have building wall of market orders (WALL) behind your back, orders in same direction with your market order direction.

Having Delta support your move always offers a higher return.

Delta shows market orders which is in control. Delta is your momentum.

No, Market Orders is the only momentum you should follow, Delta is Bias.

If Delta momentum has no effect on price you assume - absorption by limit orders. Only in this situation you take limit orders into account and OHLC. Overall you basically ignore limit orders (resting orders) on either side. You ignore limit orders which may stop you, and limit orders which may support you.

Always may no attention to resting orders (limit orders) because 50% are fake and are moved 0.5 seconds before execution. But yes if Delta is stalling then absorption is occurring on the order books and we know the resting order data wasn't fake. Most traders when they first decide to trade order flow only focus only on these resting orders looking for large blocking orders to trade against. I also started this way but you will find long term it's a losing strategy - DON'T EVEN TRY

-If Delta momentum is against WALL you assume it is stop loss cascade - ingineered. Quick entry with momentum, take profit, possibly even reverse.

I never ASSUME, but am prepared incase a Stop Run does occurs to either jump in or wait for the bounce back. As the Stop Run is instantaneously mostly, best to wait for the bounce.

If Delta momentum comply with WALL you assume it is shift in market structure.

Yes

If opposite absorption is observed, and WALL is compliant with you direction - what is your decision ?

Follow the Market Orders with more confidence.

Have you ever observed through lenses of vertical volume profile - high volume node, low volume node ?

Almost every Future trader swears by it including myself. Look for bell shapes and trade back to the POC and away from low value areas. Just another tool order flow traders watch while they follow market orders. In Order, I follow Market Orders looking for Momentum, looking for Tick rejection & Complete Auctions WHILE watching the Delta on M1 and looking at Volume Profile to see where the POC & low values are located.
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,276
  • Nov 27, 2022 1:02am Nov 27, 2022 1:02am
Great insight thank you.
  • #1,277
  • Nov 27, 2022 1:19am Nov 27, 2022 1:19am
Quoting RickM
{quote} The best way to profit with the volume information is to establish the minimal amount of volume needed to expand price, then draw a line on the volume levels. For example Ryan and myself look for volume on Gold above 333 units per minute. This is the tipping edge for expansion of price when the volume consisently keeps moving price in either a bullish or bearish direction.
How do you come up with that number ? As far as I understand your ways it must be experience.
  • #1,278
  • Nov 27, 2022 1:20am Nov 27, 2022 1:20am
I think people put too much magic is word delta. Delta is just a difference.

123 buys and 100 sells = 23 delta (difference)
100 buys and 123 sells = -23 delta

Now we need context. When it happened? After accumulation phase? Then go long. After distribution phase? Then go short. Etc.
Better open chart and near it open orderflow.

And do not "study" the past using candles. It make no sense. Smallest TF on crypto is 200ms, so 1min tf make no sense it show nothing.
Observer effect
  • #1,279
  • Nov 27, 2022 1:59am Nov 27, 2022 1:59am
Allow me to drop this link about OrderBook "patterns". Have no experience, no idea. However they seem to know what they are doing... or should I say selling .
https://fxssi.com/order-book-trading
  • #1,280
  • Nov 27, 2022 2:34am Nov 27, 2022 2:34am
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: screenshot.png Size: 39 KB

check the chart. It is DOGEusdt 5 min

See there are 3-in-a-row delta entry. After that I start to build my position.

All done. I have about +1.34% profit with that trade and 1x leverage max was used (so literally no margin used).
Observer effect
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