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Bitcoin - Reality check for the naives out there

  • #21
  • Dec 20, 2015 3:29am Dec 20, 2015 3:29am
Quoting ForexOracle
I also don't buy the assumption that the so called " private key" as you name it to be so private.

It's not always easy to understand the concepts involved in achieving certain forms of encryption, but there are familiar mathematical constructs and formulae that you don't have to understand to see how they can be useful to achieve the "difficulty to decrypt" that makes for stronger and weaker encryption.

These mathematical operations are deterministic, in other words they run one way, in the same way every time, but cannot be reversed without expending tremendous effort. In this case it does not matter how well funded or clever an entity is, the determinism will always require the same effort.

For example, from http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/que...-a-private-key

Quote
If we assume it takes the same time to run an ECDSA operation as it takes to check an sha256 hash (it takes much longer), and we use an optimisation that allows us to only need 2^128 ECDSA operations, then the time needed can be calculated:

Inserted Code
>>> pow(2,128) / (15 * pow(2,40)) / 3600 / 24 / 365.25 / 1e9 / 1e9 0.6537992112229596

It's 0.65 billion billion years.

That's an very conservative estimate for the time taken to break one single Bitcoin address.

Bitcoin's use of Elliptic Curve cryptography and some quite common and well-understood mathematical trapdoors means that the keys being used are tough.

But once again cracking Bitcoin keys is practically unnecessary since all the details of every transaction are public anyway. The only reason to crack a Bitcoin address would be to steal the coins in that address, and because of the provable effort required to do so, there is no guarantee that the coins would still be in that address by the time the attacker is done! What's more, it is common practice among Bitcoin users to store large amounts of bitcoins in multi-signature transactions - so an attacker would not just need to crack one key but several.
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #22
  • Dec 20, 2015 4:13am Dec 20, 2015 4:13am
Quoting Mingary
I will never ever use bitcoin... but then again, I will never use facebook either (; Tune in, Turn on, Drop out.
Don't be too sure about that, Mingary.

The Fed will soon be deploying a blockchain for some form of crypto-dollar settlement network, and the major banks, Visa and SWIFT have announced planned migration to blockchain based payment systems.
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #23
  • Dec 20, 2015 4:44am Dec 20, 2015 4:44am
Quoting ForexOracle
Brazil just gave us an example on how governments have virtually total control over regular peoples life. The messaging app " whatsapp" got blocked for the whole country for about 48 hours. Every time I comment about bitcoin been a scheme from the elites to give you a false sense of security some " expert" pop up to say I don't understand how bitcoin works. Well, let me tell you that bitcoin can't exist without the internet. And since governments have total control over the internet, governments have total control over bitcoin. I'm Tired of people...
Bitcoin is just some fools attempt to circumvent regular capital. Its only as good as the hype lasts.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
  • #24
  • Dec 20, 2015 11:20pm Dec 20, 2015 11:20pm
Quoting venzen
{quote} It's not always easy to understand the concepts involved in achieving certain forms of encryption, but there are familiar mathematical constructs and formulae that you don't have to understand to see how they can be useful to achieve the "difficulty to decrypt" that makes for stronger and weaker encryption. These mathematical operations are deterministic, in other words they run one way, in the same way every time, but cannot be reversed without expending tremendous effort. In this case it does not matter how well funded or clever an entity...
I'm not an expert but "sort of" familiar with elliptical curve cryptography. At least i know the concept and i do understand the mathematical ramifications.

They say elliptical crypto will only be cracked when we get quantum computing available.

I accept it as a fact to the average hacker or even certain countries, but what about the US or European government?

Do you believe the CIA, FBI, Secret Service etc to face the same challenges?

They have pretty much unlimited resources. They may even already have access to quantum computing. Who knows for sure?

If you believe crypto-currencies "secret key" to be indeed secret I respect your opinion.

Personally I don't and thats why i think bitcoin is just a trap.
So, you think you have rights? LOL
  • #25
  • Dec 20, 2015 11:39pm Dec 20, 2015 11:39pm
Quoting venzen
{quote} Don't be too sure about that, Mingary. The Fed will soon be deploying a blockchain for some form of crypto-dollar settlement network, and the major banks, Visa and SWIFT have announced planned migration to blockchain based payment systems.
Thats something I strongly agree.

We are 70 or 80% there already, with credit cards, online banking and mobile phone payment.

Cash will soon disappear. Thats the only way they can be sure everybody will pay taxes. No more informal economy.

They want to collect not 99 but 100% taxes and they know they can't do it wile cash exists.

We are already completely dependent on banks today. And as soon as everything goes digital they will know exactly how much money you make. where you spend it. How much you save etc etc.

Under convenience, privacy, agility and other excuses the herd is almost to the point of being slaughtered .

Of course parallel markets will develop but those will be illegal. would be willing to go to jail for it?
So, you think you have rights? LOL
  • #26
  • Dec 20, 2015 11:50pm Dec 20, 2015 11:50pm
Quoting ForexOracle
If you believe crypto-currencies "secret key" to be indeed secret I respect your opinion. Personally I don't and thats why i think bitcoin is just a trap.
ForexOracle,

We need to consider that as much as there is the possibility of cracking almost all encryption, there are also degrees of encryption and the option to change the encryption that a protocol uses.

There are certain "mathematical trapdoors" which only work one-way, therefore, they result in encryption that cannot be decrypted, so then, why use it?

When choosing encryption standards, software engineers seek to balance the trade-off between strength of encryption and resource cost of decryption. So, while there are forms of encryption that are so strong that they will even take quantum computing thousands of years to brute-force, the key-lengths involved and the work required to decrypt renders such algorithms impractical for day-to-day use on the average PC or smartphone.

Yet, nothing stops the Bitcoin core devs from cranking up (or changing) the current ECDSA algorithm should it emerge that there is an occurrence of private keys being deduced from public keys. As it is, the recommended practice for bitcoin users is to generate new keys for every transaction. That should keep even a quantum computer busy while, on other fronts, new cryptocurrencies using much tougher encryption (and requiring the attention of quantum cracking) are being used by known adversaries - not just Joe Bloggs buying coffee with bitcoin.

So, yes, most encryption in-use can theoretically be cracked - eventually anyway - but what would government gain from cracking Bitcoin private keys? To steal money from citizens? Surely, they have more pressing concerns than trying to rob me of the few little bitcoins I keep around for making convenience payments!
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #27
  • Dec 21, 2015 12:16am Dec 21, 2015 12:16am
Quoting venzen
{quote} ForexOracle, We need to consider that as much as there is the possibility of cracking almost all encryption, there are also degrees of encryption and the option to change the encryption that a protocol uses. There are certain "mathematical trapdoors" which only work one-way, therefore, they result in encryption that cannot be decrypted, so then, why use it? When choosing encryption standards, software engineers seek to balance the trade-off between strength of encryption and resource cost of decryption. So, while there are forms of encryption...
I don't think people in control are after our money. Remember they create money any time they want.

They are after control over our money !!

They want total control over their peasants.

Via taxes, salaries, payments and financial transactions in general they can achieve it.

Money is something tricky because if "the peasants" don't believe in it , it does not exist, so they have to move slowly and carefully.

But after everybody is inside the trap there is no way to escape and only than they will reveal their true intentions.

People say we live under a "benevolent feudalism" regime but i think the word benevolent will soon disappear via the total control they will have over your money.

Just imagine the kind of control some people will have if any form of money you can use or commercial transaction you can make is in your computer!!
So, you think you have rights? LOL
  • #28
  • Edited 3:54am Dec 21, 2015 12:30am | Edited 3:54am
Quoting ForexOracle
We are already completely dependent on banks today. And as soon as everything goes digital they will know exactly how much money you make. where you spend it. How much you save etc etc.
Well, yes, depending on which country you live in, most likely the authorities already know all of that. Having the whole citizenry use cryptocurrency issued by the regional central bank will increase their ability to monitor money flow.

And this is not the fault of Bitcoin. Cryptocurrency and the blockchain was going to happen eventually, because they are the logical outcomes of 100 years of computer science and the modern possibility of peer2peer networks. The US govt has been researching electronic cash since the early 90s and have expressed their intention of eliminating cash for several decades. Yet, we have to distinguish between a disruptive innovation, such as the blockchain (with its flagship Bitcoin) and the time-honored capacity of govt and cartels to co-opt such innovations. It doesn't make the innovation the culprit for there being wage-slaves and sheeple following (and empowering) their own corrupt oppressors, right?

If anyone can prove that Bitcoin is a creation of govt then I'll have to review my position and my concept of reality, but as matters stand there is no evidence that this is the case. Remember that the innovation is the blockchain: trustless consensus, censorship resistant and decentralized. Bitcoin is just a currency - one example implementation and a proof of concept of the blockchain. The implications that blockchain has for rendering centralized trust irrelevant, means that any govt (central authority) who gifts the world with such a disruptive innovation - potentially its own nemesis - is just stupid!

Will govt and central banking try to co-opt the innovation? Sure - after discovering that they couldn't ban or control it, they quickly set-up blockchain task-teams in dedicated research labs. Will they use it to continue doing what they do? They're well on their way, and with willing slaves to bestow them with trust and authority, for most it will be like Bitcoin doesn't exist - even though they get paid and spend cryptoDollars issued by the Fed and managed by their local bank. In effect nothing has changed, the control is just tighter, which is what most people will, ironically, vote for when given the choice.
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #29
  • Edited 3:52am Dec 21, 2015 12:34am | Edited 3:52am
Quoting ForexOracle
Just imagine the kind of control some people will have if any form of money you can use or commercial transaction you can make is in your computer!!
Perhaps your choice of scenarios and potential outcome is skewed by your own country's conditions, but the very thing you mention (transactions only via computer) is why sole reliance on cryptocurrency and the kind of regime you project into the future is unlikely. A digital-only economy is rendered impractical by the fact that more than half of the world's population doesn't have reliable electricity and/or connectivity.

Cash is King
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #30
  • Edited 5:58am Dec 21, 2015 3:13am | Edited 5:58am
Quoting ForexOracle
I don't think people in control are after our money. Remember they create money any time they want.
Exactly, so if govt is not explicitly out to steal bitcoins, then there is no rational motivation for them to dedicate quantum resources to deducing private keys from bitcoin public keys ("addresses"). If govt wants to know what bitcoins are being spent by whom then they can just query the public blockchain and read the information off the screen - if they want to connect the address with a person, then they just get a warrant and ask the local ISP for IP address logs. No quantum computing is necessary in this case.

However, if a criminal organization notices that a certain address contains $7mil worth of bitcoin and they want to deduce the private key needed to unlock those coins - even using ASIC technology, it will potentially take them billions of years. That's ECDSA cryptography for you - no amount of funding or cleverness can reduce the gargantuan task of brute-forcing it.

Quoting ForexOracle
They are after control over our money !!!
Now you're talking. Given that fiat currency can simply be conjured out of thin air, every time the cenbank prints money or credit, and inflates the money supply, they rob all holders and savers by devaluing the currency.

Bitcoin has a fixed supply of 21mil bitcoins being disbursed over just more than a century. It's supply inflation rate halves every 2.5 years, and most of the bitcoins that will ever exist are already in circulation. No one can change that because the money supply algorithm is baked into the protocol's core. Those coins are distributed across hundreds of thousands of bitcoin addresses - each requiring at least a billion years of CPU cycles to crack. So, for anyone seeking to control Bitcoin, stealing the coins is an impossible option.

The Bitcoin network is decentralized via a peer2peer network, hence there is no center to attack. Controlling the network is a near impossible task too, since a majority of nodes need to contribute to consensus about the blockchain's state - for it to be valid, and before any transaction can be accepted into it, as valid. While someone is attacking this part of the network, the other side of the network is already forming a new consensus. This combination of being distributed, decentralized and constantly seeking consensus makes the protocol network censorship resistant.

That sounds like "water resistant up to 20m" but there is no qualification: it means Bitcoin cannot be censored. It exists and it cannot be stopped or un-seen. The genie is out of the bottle. Bitcoin is a commodity and a programmable money that, as an explicit design goal, cannot be controlled by any entity nor can anyone snuff it out of existence. Does govt and the bank like that? how could they? Do they accept it? with furrowed brows and soiled pants, their own research convinced them that they have no choice. So, they must adopt it or become irrelevant.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/blo...eam-2015-12-19

Money flow and rising interest rates have the US dollar valuating, so as a trader and investor I want to hold USD. But the Fed can devalue it in a hot minute.

Fixed supply and indestructible fundamentals has bitcoin appreciating, so I also want to hold BTC.
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #31
  • Dec 21, 2015 1:46pm Dec 21, 2015 1:46pm
Quoting venzen
{quote} Exactly, so if govt is not explicitly out to steal bitcoins, then there is no rational motivation for them to dedicate quantum resources to deducing private keys from bitcoin public keys ("addresses"). If govt wants to know what bitcoins are being spent by whom then they can just query the public blockchain and read the information off the screen - if they want to connect the address with a person, then they just get a warrant and ask the local ISP for IP address logs. No quantum computing is necessary in this case. However, if a criminal...
I apologize if i did not make myself understandable on the first post.

My point was never that the "elites" government or whatever are after peoples cryptocurrency.

They don't want to steal it from you, they want to control it to the point that if you don't behave according to their rules they can turn you off.

These people want total control over you just like the landlord had it in the middle ages.

They want to be able to go to your house and rape your wife and kids without consequences.

Right now they don't quite have it, but in a near future they will.
So, you think you have rights? LOL
  • #32
  • Edited Dec 22, 2015 10:01pm Dec 21, 2015 10:49pm | Edited Dec 22, 2015 10:01pm
Quoting ForexOracle
{quote} I apologize if i did not make myself understandable on the first post. My point was never that the "elites" government or whatever are after peoples cryptocurrency. They don't want to steal it from you, they want to control it to the point that if you don't behave according to their rules they can turn you off. These people want total control over you just like the landlord had it in the middle ages. They want to be able to go to your house and rape your wife and kids without consequences. Right now they don't quite have it, but in a near...
ForexOracle,

You made yourself sufficiently clear and my previous post agrees with you: govt is not out to steal bitcoins from ordinary users' wallets, just as they don't go around stealing funds from ordinary citizens' bank accounts. I illustrated that there is no encryption - at all - in the Bitcoin protocol, so govt does not need to turn quantum computing or master decryption keys on the protocol to know exactly what is going on with bitcoin money flow. This is by design of Bitcoin's creator who effectively says to govt: you can see it all but you will never control it and cannot censor it.

I illustrated how, again by design, as a consequence of a decentralized p2p network and a consensus-seeking algorithm, Bitcoin is censorship resistant. It cannot be controlled or "taken over" or even switched off by anyone. I explain why Bitcoin cannot be a product of govt - because it contains the seed that will render govt centralized control irrelevant.

There are entities who control money - central banks - and they are the paymasters of govt. Law and finance exists to suit them - the banking families. They own the country and they own the people and they own the money.

I see the comparison you make with feudal times: the landlord, the peasant, the relations of power. They've been going into peoples houses and doing what they want for centuries. Today they do it via tv and the media. They need a compliant citizenry to work and to consume. This is the difference between feudal times (land and labor) and today (finance capital and consumption).

Bitcoin was created, among many other reasons, to circumvent them and their money and their control. I've shown you, throughout various posts, that they cannot control or stop Bitcoin. Not via their employee, govt, or its paranoid agencies with their Star Trek facilities. No matter how well funded or the size of their PhD army, they cannot control all the drops of water in the ocean, nor can they kill an idea.

In fact, to their sour annoyance, the central banks must yield to Bitcoin's innovation and disruption: they are implementing blockchain-based settlement networks, but its just hollow imitation - although useful, their flaccid blockchain lacks the defiant spirit of Bitcoin, lacks the vibrant decentralization and must be forced onto citizens. How? via their paycheck and local bank, via wage labor.

Of course, a robots' rebellion is always an option, but watching the tv and remaining compliant is easier and what most people opt for. These are the ones who give control of their lives and their money to self-appointed authorities. These are the same people who poo-poo Bitcoin because they believe resistance is futile and that nothing worthwhile can come from any entity other than their govt and its corporations and the suit-wearing Eye. Central banking and govt will always have supporters and believers such as these and it rewards them with porn, consumables, a pension and the false security of surveillance and control.

This is what your original post in this thread is all about, but your blame on Bitcoin was misinformed and misdirected.
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #33
  • Dec 25, 2015 7:02pm Dec 25, 2015 7:02pm
i love bitcoin and i have invested 3000$ in bitcoin mining so far receiving 10% per month in my investment which i can resell
all have a nice day
focus while relaxed to see better
  • #34
  • Jan 2, 2016 2:02pm Jan 2, 2016 2:02pm
Quoting orabi
i love bitcoin and i have invested 3000$ in bitcoin mining so far receiving 10% per month in my investment which i can resell all have a nice day
ok i am not happy in my investment they are just scams they lowered the output so much this genesis mining they are scams be careful
focus while relaxed to see better
  • #35
  • Jan 2, 2016 2:44pm Jan 2, 2016 2:44pm
first it was 0,017 then it become 0.013 i asked why they said difficulty have increased after one week it become 0.010 so i lost my money for sure now it si only two month they are big scams this genesis mining dont mine ever never just buy and sell
all have a nice day please and be careful of genesis mining
focus while relaxed to see better
  • #36
  • Jan 12, 2016 8:27pm Jan 12, 2016 8:27pm
Honestly,I personally don't think bitcoins will crash.But thats just my opinion,since trading crypto currencies has done well for me in the past.
  • #37
  • Jan 15, 2016 7:00pm Jan 15, 2016 7:00pm
Quoting BitcoinMania
Honestly,I personally don't think bitcoins will crash.But thats just my opinion,since trading crypto currencies has done well for me in the past.
it is crashing now from 430 to 360 in just one candle but it will pick up
have a nice day please
focus while relaxed to see better
  • #38
  • Jan 16, 2016 1:03am Jan 16, 2016 1:03am
Perhaps, for those who get a lot of information from the mainstream media, there is still a perception that Bitcoin use is restricted to rebel-geeks and conspiracy theorists, but here is the same mainstream media with some light, non-computer science facts about the Bitcoin network's true size and computational power:

From CCN: How big is Bitcoin?
http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/23/tech...ers/index.html

and
http://www.businessinsider.com/quant...bitcoin-2013-4

The original proposition of this thread, that government can somehow out-compute Bitcoin, is refuted in the second article above.

Floating freely in the open market, its price will go up and down, but Bitcoin cannot be stopped, controlled or censored - it's here to stay.
cryptocurrency everytime
  • #39
  • Jan 16, 2016 1:35am Jan 16, 2016 1:35am
,
Quoting venzen
Perhaps, for those who get a lot of information from the mainstream media, there is still a perception that Bitcoin use is restricted to rebel-geeks and conspiracy theorists, but here is the same mainstream media with some light, non-computer science facts about the Bitcoin network's true size and computational power: From CCN: How big is Bitcoin? http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/23/tech...ers/index.html and http://www.businessinsider.com/quant...bitcoin-2013-4...
So here i come to disagree again......

Cryptocurrencies which are allegedly unstoppable and control and censor proof, will be the ultimate tool to censor, control and restrain !!

We are pretty close to a cashless society and governments ( elites) will impose some form of cryptocurrency, which one is very hard to predict.

It could be bitcoin or something else, but as soon as it happens, naive people will suddenly wake up to fact they are completely in the hands of somebody else and can't control their own lives anymore.

We already live in a "neo-feudalism" like regime, soon it will be slavery all over again.
So, you think you have rights? LOL
  • #40
  • Mar 16, 2016 3:50am Mar 16, 2016 3:50am
Can Facebook exist without the internet?
Great Bodies are Engineered not Born
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