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  • #4,301
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:19pm Mar 20, 2015 2:19pm
Quoting HedgePiglet
{quote} Youre almost right. They actually do not make the price. They offer as competitive as possible a price/value for an instrument and the decision to accept their price is yours and yours alone. I absolutely advocate shopping around and speaking with your broker. I do however disagree that price is somehow manipulated to their ends. Spreads widen, liquidity thins and demand rises and falls, the broker needs to be one step ahead where price is heading to remain relevant/competitive and if they start to 'slip' they have little more option than...
There would be *NO* need for the broker "to be one step ahead" if that broker was not a Market Maker. The broker could simply "charge a commission" and pass the trade to the interbank market. The shenanigan of widening the spread multiple times over the interbank spread would cease. Client stop orders that are way beyond the interbank spread would not get executed.

You yourself don't trade with Oanda, and for that you're wiser than us.

Also, you don't need $100,000 dollars or pounds to access nearly interbank rates. InterActive Brokers is one such broker that charges a fixed commission. I don't know their minimum but I'd expect it to be 2K dollars.

As Profit Daily said: "if every broker charged a commission and provided raw interbank spreads", the fx landscape would be more safe for retail traders.
  • #4,302
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:37pm Mar 20, 2015 2:37pm
Quoting herenow0
{quote} "if every broker charged a commission and provided raw interbank spreads", the fx landscape would be more safe for retail traders.
You're living in la-la-land my friend. So the live interbank rate is 'x' and every trader in the world wants 1,000 of them. You write me the system that manages that request and ensured everyone gets their price the instant they want it, guaranteed.

And the guy who clicked 'buy' while nobody in the world was willing to sell at 'x', you're suggesting the broker should honour the price for as long as it takes to satisfy 1,000,000,000 requests. In an instant?

Tell me you're kidding...

IB charges 10,000. Clearly no problem for you but the average retail account in the US is $3,800. Pity about them...

Anyway, my point was: stop blaming the broker. Your frustration is borne of upset that while nobody would mind if your losses were just yours, the idea that someone else is profiting from your misery is offensive. If you can't accept the brutality of it, you shouldn't be trading.
In life you get 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
  • #4,303
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:40pm Mar 20, 2015 2:40pm
Quoting herenow0
{quote} There would be *NO* need for the broker "to be one step ahead" if that broker was not a Market Maker. The broker could simply "charge a commission" and pass the trade to the interbank market. The shenanigan of widening the spread multiple times over the interbank spread would cease. Client stop orders that are way beyond the interbank spread would not get executed. You yourself don't trade with Oanda, and for that you're wiser than us. Also, you don't need $100,000 dollars or pounds to access nearly interbank rates. InterActive Brokers is...
Interactive Brokers is 10K. The unfortunate circumstances for US traders is the fact that there are many DMA/ECN regulated brokers worldwide who are head and shoulders above any broker in the US. In addition to trading restriction free, the conditions are much better. There is no widening of spreads, freezing of platforms or any of the other garbage our beloved "regulated" brokers get away with. However, as the NFA feels they can regulate the world, these brokers are strong-armed into not accepting US clients. That only leaves trading with an unregulated broker, there are 15 that still accept US clients, only 5 of them are any good. However, those 5 have trading conditions which blow away US brokers. Your funds are not protected in the US anyway, so I'll take restriction free and better conditions any day, in addition to only needing 7-10% of the margin to hold THE SAME EXACT TRADE.
  • #4,304
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:43pm Mar 20, 2015 2:43pm
Quoting HedgePiglet
{quote} You're living in la-la-land my friend. So the live interbank rate is 'x' and every trader in the world wants 1,000 of them. You write me the system that manages that request and ensured everyone gets their price the instant they want it, guaranteed. And the guy who clicked 'buy' while nobody in the world was willing to sell at 'x', you're suggesting the broker should honour the price for as long as it takes to satisfy 1,000,000,000 requests. In an instant? Tell me you're kidding... IB charges 10,000. Clearly no problem for you but the average...
Of course, when you win someone loses and vice versa. The point is that counterparty SHOULD NOT BE THE FOLKS CONTOLLING THE SOFTWARE you're trading on.
  • #4,305
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:43pm Mar 20, 2015 2:43pm
Quoting Profit Daily
{quote} Interactive Brokers is 10K. The unfortunate circumstances for US traders is the fact that there are many DMA/ECN regulated brokers worldwide who are head and shoulders above any broker in the US. In addition to trading restriction free, the conditions are much better. There is no widening of spreads, freezing of platforms or any of the other garbage our beloved "regulated" brokers get away with. However, as the NFA feels they can regulate the world, these brokers are strong-armed into not accepting US clients. That only leaves trading with...
US traders do not enjoy the same value/opportunity as elsewhere in the world. No contest.

Anyway, good weekend all.
In life you get 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
  • #4,306
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:53pm Mar 20, 2015 2:53pm
No, I'm living right here my friend. While your arguments are erudite, I disagree with them. The point we're making is: the broker should not be the market maker. The broker should not take the other side of your trade. If your broker (like Oanda) is doing that, it will do shenanigans like spread widening, closing your account if you're profitable, etc.

This is not a hypothetical you clicked 'buy' when price was 'x' and nobody was willing to sell at 'x'. We're talking about spreads that widen multiple times over the interbank spread. Let the interbank market execute the trade. Why is the broker widening the spread multiple times over to execute their client's stops?

If you don't agree with me, please switch to Oanda. Close your positions every time there is any news and don't trade with any stop limit entry or exit orders. While your advice is kosher, it isn't very practical in a 24x7 market unless you're a day trader (like perhaps yourself).
  • #4,307
  • Mar 20, 2015 2:59pm Mar 20, 2015 2:59pm
If not oando then who?

i need to do cfds and I need to hold for a long time, so closing at the rolling time isn't practical
  • #4,308
  • Mar 21, 2015 4:43am Mar 21, 2015 4:43am
Quoting herenow0
No, I'm living right here my friend. While your arguments are erudite, I disagree with them. The point we're making is: the broker should not be the market maker. The broker should not take the other side of your trade. If your broker (like Oanda) is doing that, it will do shenanigans like spread widening, closing your account if you're profitable, etc. This is not a hypothetical you clicked 'buy' when price was 'x' and nobody was willing to sell at 'x'. We're talking about spreads that widen multiple times over the interbank spread. Let the interbank...
I am a day trader. As is 98.8% of the customers of all the brokers you discredit. I have used retail offerings historically and the point remains: if you have sound MM with sensible in market order position, a 3-4 pip widening of the cost of the transaction has absolutely zero affect on me. None. You don't even imply, in fact you outright name OANDA and accuse them of all manner of fraud, simply because you're trying to plug a triangle in a square cavity. If OANDA or another broker isn't 'right' for you, raise 40,000,000 and start your own service where you guarantee fills and single pip spreads and pop your brand in here. The fact you are incapable of accepting that the broker MUST widen costs during various market conditions is no longer my point to make. But then I guess Alpari, FXCM and a host of others all 'actually' made huge gains during the CHF crisis. Evidencing your conspiracy.

So for the last time: if an organisation has the insight to buy apples at 10, 20, 30 and 40 then chooses to sell you their stock at a profit and not actually make the drive down to the grocers each time you want one, I say well done to them.
In life you get 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
  • #4,309
  • Edited 5:20am Mar 21, 2015 5:07am | Edited 5:20am
Quoting HedgePiglet
{quote} I am a day trader. As is 98.8% of the customers of all the brokers you discredit. I have used retail offerings historically and the point remains: if you have sound MM with sensible in market order position, a 3-4 pip widening of the cost of the transaction has absolutely zero affect on me. None.
Nor does it to mine.

I was talking 300 Pips on a XAUUSD during a market order which was protected against slippage of 2 pips at max.

Here's the trigger event:

Inserted Code
 0 08:50:24.668 db_MTStop_V2.05 XAUUSD,H1: checkTriggerLines: Parameters for orderSendReliable: price=1283.117, size=XXXXXX, sl=1280.986, tp=1306.079, oco=0, rev=0

Here's the log of the EA which logged the order parameters as:

Inserted Code
 0 08:50:24.668 db_MTStop_V2.05 XAUUSD,H1: orderSendReliable(XAUUSD,0,XXXXX,0(1283.117),2,1280.98621875,1306.079,"",0,0,16711680)

and here's the logging of the fill:

Inserted Code
 2 08:50:24.988 db_MTStop_V2.05 XAUUSD,H1: open #62XXXXX05 buy XXXXXX XAUUSD at 1286.668 sl: 1280.986 tp: 1306.079 ok

The parameter maxSlippage of orderSend was completely ignored. I would have expected an "Off quotes" or "invalid price" at a market order.

Note that the current price was 1283.117 and the fill was at 1286.668

Well having a sound MM It did not hurt by money too much.

What DID hurt was the outright lying using the weasel phrase "Technical reasons of MT4".

Edit: Learned my lesson for a pretty low price: "Don't do breakout trading at oanda".
  • #4,310
  • Mar 21, 2015 5:19am Mar 21, 2015 5:19am
Quoting Naddmer
{quote} What DID hurt was the outright lying using the weasel phrase "Technical reasons of MT4".
My concise response is this, and sadly I don't have any evidence. MT4 is a COMPLETELY different animal. Last time I checked the setup fee was circa $800,000 for rights to distribute MT4/5 and a substantial portion of the costs of the tx are charged by Metaquotes.

I have limited personal experience with MT4 so would be the wrong person to comment in an area I am not well informed other than to say this: anyone who believes MT4 is 'free' is asking for a world of pain. It's a clunky, dated, oversubscribed tool that has little or no place in retail trading. It's a product that was built to make money from the user, it has a COMPLETELY different fee scale for the broker and I am aware that by using it as part of the t's & c's, you are assigned zero rights to contest the softwares management of your trade. Problem is, with over 12 million actual users worldwide, they're not about to change.

This question deserves a new thread, specific to MT4. I can almost bet you the snag you saw was in fact beyond the control of the broker in question. Almost guarantee it.
In life you get 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
  • #4,311
  • Mar 21, 2015 5:56am Mar 21, 2015 5:56am
Quoting HedgePiglet
{quote} My concise response is this, and sadly I don't have any evidence. MT4 is a COMPLETELY different animal. Last time I checked the setup fee was circa $800,000 for rights to distribute MT4/5 and a substantial portion of the costs of the tx are charged by Metaquotes ....
Thanks for the interesting economic insight into a MT4 deployment at a broker. Someone has to pay a price, duh?

If I might contribute some technicals atop?

The function to send an order to the market in MQL is OrderSend() and it is documented here: http://docs.mql4.com/trading/ordersend

This OrderSend() function has a parameter "Slippage" which returns an error code if the current broker price is more than "Slippage" points away from the price requested. The price requested is usually refreshed right before sending the order via OrderSend() and the current price is logged by the EA.

Oanda has its own MT4 bridge to their order system and they had to get to a decision what to do with the "Slippage" parameter of MT4.

They obviously decided to ignore this parameter "Slippage" for what ever the reason.

Speculation is:

 

  1. It was too complicated (e.g. too expensive) to get integrated into the MT4 bridge
  2. They ignored the parameter deliberately.
  3. (Edit): They simply forgot it and now the budget for maintenance is gone.


But in no way it was a "technical reason of MT4". This is an outright lie which is pretty embarrassing to me.

It was a design decision of some manager or engineer at Oanda to ignore the parameter "Slippage" but never ever a "technical reason".

On top of that: They knew it already at least since 2012 which points pretty much to 2.).

https://fxtrade.oanda.com/community/...5#post-9869193

And if they do not provide a good reason for 2.) then it is pretty safe to assume some stochastic economics.
This kind of economics which got FXCM sued:

http://forexmagnates.com/fxcm-uk-ann...tric-slippage/

  • #4,312
  • Mar 21, 2015 6:10am Mar 21, 2015 6:10am
Quoting Naddmer
{quote} Thanks for the interesting economic insight into a MT4 deployment at a broker. Someone has to pay a price, duh? If I might contribute some technicals atop?
Ha, I'm no fan of MT4.
I don't wish to make a case beyond areas I am positioned to, other than to say that the model prescribed by MT4 is just short of barbaric.
Everything about the way it is managed COMMERCIALLY leaves me cold. In many senses we must accept that the odds are stacked heavily against us, and the suggestion that the people we trust to handle our instructions for us might be in on it is bitter. I'll circle back to my first and sustained point, that the utopia we all wish we had is simply not available so it's OUR duty to research, interrogate and choose. If we know provider 'A' widens costs during condition 'Z', we have 2 choices. Adapt your strategy (as you have) to incorporate the variables, or stay out.
In life you get 3 types of people, those who can count and those who can't.
  • #4,313
  • Mar 21, 2015 6:34am Mar 21, 2015 6:34am
Quoting HedgePiglet
{quote} Ha, I'm no fan of MT4.
Nor am I. Read the MT4 Build 600 thread and you'll know my point of view about the up(gr)(d)ate which they did.
We could spend hours and hours of ranting and it will lead to nothing but ranting.

To get the Oanda-practise of spread robbery changed ranting would not help either.

To get it changed the following steps seem appropriate to me:

  1. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets.
  2. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets.
  3. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets.
  4. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets.
  5. Complain and open trade disputes at oanda. Use the evidence in 1.) for that.
    To work on the trade dispute will cost them more that the spreadrobbery gains if enough ppl are doing this.
  6. Post the evidence publicly to diminish the customer base.
    They will have to increase the marketing spending to work against this or simply stop spread robbing which at some point is more expensive than the gain of the spreadrobbery.
  7. Complain at the regulators. Evidence?
  8. Sue - You got the evidences at hand?


Quote
In many senses we must accept that the odds are stacked heavily against us, and the suggestion that the people we trust to handle our instructions for us might be in on it is bitter.

But we may call a "cheater" a "cheater" publicly provided the evidence, don't we?
  • #4,314
  • Mar 21, 2015 6:50am Mar 21, 2015 6:50am
Quoting Naddmer
{quote} Nor am I. Read the MT4 Build 600 thread and you'll know my point of view about the up(gr)(d)ate which they did. We could spend hours and hours of ranting and it will lead to nothing but ranting. To get the Oanda-practise of spread robbery changed ranting would not help either. To get it changed the following steps seem appropriate to me: Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets. Collect evidence. Screenshots, logfiles, tickets. Complain...
I have a simpler solution....leave Oanda and go elsewhere like I did years ago (and that was BEFORE they whacked the spreads up to silly numbers when they had a 0.9 spread on EU). The new CEO is screwing the company into the ground and it isn't the company it once was. I love their platform and always have (not MT4) but I wouldn't touch em with a barge pole, the spreads are not even competitive at the best of times, not to mention the "variable" part. I am on the lookout for a new broker at the moment as my current one, although I have no complaints, will not be able to handle my trade sizes for much longer, but I will be looking for a good ECN rather than anything that uses MT4 or a market maker.
  • #4,315
  • Mar 21, 2015 1:48pm Mar 21, 2015 1:48pm
Quoting ewokuk
{quote} I have a simpler solution....leave Oanda and go elsewhere like I did years ago ....
This is not the way "to get things changed" as I said in Post #4313.

This is the logical implication of part of 6.) of the strategy to "get things changed" at the aforementioned place.

Quoting ewokuk
(and that was BEFORE they whacked the spreads up to silly numbers when they had a 0.9 spread on EU).
As said before - 2..4 pips are not the point. I'm not even talking 20 Pips. Even this would not break my risk management.

I'm talking 50...X Pips on spread robbery and of ways to get this changed.
They introduced it on the opinion to get away with it.
If we let them - well - they'll be right and I'm wrong.
But if we don't let them, they'll be sorry and we're right.

Quoting ewokuk
I am on the lookout for a new broker at the moment as my current one, although I have no complaints, will not be able to handle my trade sizes for much longer, but I will be looking for a good ECN rather than anything that uses MT4 or a market maker.
May I ask you which broker you're using currently? PM is fine with on that - but an answer on forum would be fine if other ppl are searching for a fine broker with decent lot sizes.
  • #4,316
  • Mar 22, 2015 8:33pm Mar 22, 2015 8:33pm
If we could take delivery of FX (like the futures/commodities markets), we could arb Oanda into oblivion.
  • #4,317
  • Mar 22, 2015 8:59pm Mar 22, 2015 8:59pm
some people like to get rob by the same compnay over and over
  • #4,318
  • Mar 22, 2015 9:14pm Mar 22, 2015 9:14pm
:-) I am leaving Oanda. I won't trade with a market maker again.
  • #4,319
  • Mar 24, 2015 2:06am Mar 24, 2015 2:06am
Was Oanda honored stops on black swan event? who had long trade on eur/chf or usd/chf?was there any slippage or negative balance on fla$h crash?
  • #4,320
  • Mar 24, 2015 5:33am Mar 24, 2015 5:33am
I left oanda many years ago, but I stop here in the thread once in awhile just for fun.

It is funny to see people asking the same questions over and over again.

Maybe after 8 years as a trader I'm losing my patience but......

Come on folks ! Do some research and you will find how a MM works.

It is all on the internet for free. It is even here on FF for free to you to read and learn.

I opened a thread right after the SNB event and explained in details how the system works.

I remember later in the discussion a guy asking the same old question on why ECNs lost money and MM not.

I told him to look a few pages back and he would find the answer.

Do you know what he replayed?

"I don't want to go back and search for it"

LOL !! Thats why 99% are here!!!!!

To pay the 1% that are not as lazy !!!!!
So, you think you have rights? LOL
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