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  • #6,441
  • Jan 23, 2015 5:41am Jan 23, 2015 5:41am
Quoting grin
{quote} Read my post one page earlier. How many pips is it going to be force majeure now? Is NFP going to be force major now too? Why would trader not be excused from paying due to the force majeure?
In all of the broker T&Cs I've seen, FM events are on the client, not the broker.

Anyone having any problems pulling their cash from these losers? Seem reluctant to give me mine back.
"Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing." - Warren Buffett
  • #6,442
  • Jan 23, 2015 5:59am Jan 23, 2015 5:59am
Read carefully what the letter says.."...you are requested to remit..."

They are just asking you to top up, not enforcing based on any legal ground. They know the no-debit-balance policy is stated all over their website, video, and Product Disclosure Statement.

You just need to reply.."dear fxcm, your request is denied."

Then wave goodbye and find another broker that will stick to their words during difficult times.
  • #6,443
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:00am Jan 23, 2015 6:00am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} You are asking the wrong person, that question should be addressed in writing to the legal department of FXCM, I don't think you are going to have much luck getting a clear answer from them though, that is the whole point of this article, it can be used as a "catch all", well done lawyers. This is going to set a precedent, closely watched by other brokers, if FXCM is succesful, and let's admit they have the funds now to fight you in court, others will follow suit.
Others are already asking the clients to cover the negative balances, and the law is on their side, so most of these debts are going to be paid back friendly or unfriendly.

This Snb stuff that sent balances to negative is nothing new in the business, i've seen (not by personal experience, but from friends experiences) this happen before in 2008 with futures brokers, and i've seen people paying back 300k of negative balance, it is simply a debt, the only way to avoid it is by filing bankrupt, many people have done that also.

Fxcm said in their website that their policy is "usually" of forgive negative balances (i guess it happen from time to time, small negative balances, nothing big), but they are surely not forgiving 225mln of client's debts.

In these cases, the broker will try to ask friendly to cover the debt, and if no debt is repaid by client, they usually (usually, i don't really know what fxcm will do) sell these debts to debt-collecting agencies that then will go after each client individually, they usually sell these debts for 5%-30% of the total debt value, so my guess is that if you offer them to repay something like even 10%-20% of your debt, maybe a deal can be made (again it's just my guess).

Or you can ignore it totally, depending on which country you live, and the laws of your country, maybe you can do it without care too much.
But in some countries, owing a debt and ignoring it, can be ugly as some people may see their personal goods got taken away in court and sold, i mean debts are not good, ever.

For all those that have a negative-balance issue, if it's a small amount, just pay it.
If it's a big amount, just try to offer a deal to fxcm.
If you don't want to pay it back, at least consult a lawyer or somebody in your country that can tell you about the danger that may be involved in doing so (again, different countries have different laws).
  • #6,444
  • Edited 6:27pm Jan 23, 2015 6:25am | Edited 6:27pm
Quoting mima
How to get more data for oil (MT4 platform, USOil symbol)? I have on monthly chart only from april 2013...
I don't work for Sierra Charts but here is a solution that will get 4 years commodities and 7 years FX intraday data for all FXCM instruments (FX, IX and commodities). Others may also find this useful.

All FXCM instruments intraday data (m1,m2, m3..) from present to 2011-Jan-03 for commodities and indices and 2007-Dec-21 for FX can be got from Sierra Chart (http://www.sierrachart.com). Subscription is on a month by month basis so you only have to buy 1(one) month of real-time intraday data. After the expiration of the subscription you can still access the historical intraday data. Package 3 is currently about $20 for 1 month and a one off payment can be done through PayPal or other payment means. The charts are highly configurable, considerably superior to MT4 and support is exceptionally responsive and fast. They also don't pester or spam after subscription expiration.

This is a sophisticated package so expect some initial learning curve. See YouTube for further research.

FXCM data can be downloaded to the Sierra Chart platform via Global settings → Data/Trade Service Settings → SC Forex Data (FXCM).

Because the data is reusable I suggest saving a copy of the data file.
Attached Image

An alternative source of free historical (20+ yrs) end-of-day data charts is ProrealTime (https://www.prorealtime.com/en/). Also highly configurable. See YouTube for further research.
TSLA: 30-Dec-22 123.18 // 16-Jun-23 260.54 **111.51%**
  • #6,445
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:29am Jan 23, 2015 6:29am
Deviation already 30

this is the short list
Keep having to reset MT What gives????

2015.01.23 19:13:56.893 ': order sell 0.01 EURUSD opening at 1.11323 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000 failed [Off quotes]
2015.01.23 19:13:56.448 ': instant order sell 0.01 EURUSD at 1.11323 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000
2015.01.23 19:10:08.725 ': order sell 0.01 EURUSD opening at 1.11629 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000 failed [Off quotes]
2015.01.23 19:10:08.313 : instant order sell 0.01 EURUSD at 1.11629 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000
2015.01.23 19:10:03.312 '': order sell 0.01 EURUSD opening at 1.11629 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000 failed [Off quotes]
2015.01.23 19:10:02.265 ': instant order sell 0.01 EURUSD at 1.11629 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000
2015.01.23 19:09:57.262 ': order sell 0.01 EURUSD opening at 1.11629 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000 failed [Off quotes]
2015.01.23 19:09:56.455 '': instant order sell 0.01 EURUSD at 1.11629 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000
2015.01.23 19:04:56.823 '': order sell 0.01 EURUSD opening at 1.11814 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000 failed [Off quotes]
2015.01.23 19:04:56.439 ' instant order sell 0.01 EURUSD at 1.11814 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000
2015.01.23 19:02:56.865 ': order sell 0.01 EURUSD opening at 1.11825 sl: 0.00000 tp: 0.00000 failed [Off quotes]
Chasing The Dream...
  • #6,446
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:32am Jan 23, 2015 6:32am
Quoting spaceduck
{quote} Others are already asking the clients to cover the negative balances, and the law is on their side, so most of these debts are going to be paid back friendly or unfriendly. This Snb stuff that sent balances to negative is nothing new in the business, i've seen (not by personal experience, but from friends experiences) this happen before in 2008 with futures brokers, and i've seen people paying back 300k of negative balance, it is simply a debt, the only way to avoid it is by filing bankrupt, many people have done that also. Fxcm said in...
I'm not sure how it works in the US but in the UK, a debt is not a debt unless both parties agree, e.g. signed contract with amount, interest rate, etc. Just because one party says the other is in debt does not make it true. In this case a negative balance can only be "sold" to a debt collector if it's uncontested by the trader. If one party contests the debt then the other party has to prove in court that a debt exists with convincing evidence. In order to prove a debt I would suppose that would mean showing evidence of positions, executions, broker's risk management policy/execution etc.

There is also one more aspect I haven't seen discussed here: Gross Negligence on the part of some of the brokers. Most brokers survived with minor damage, while a few brokers took massive hits, could this mean gross negligent risk management policies endangering client funds? Don't know.....but I think the ones that did take a big hit wouldn't want to open that Pandora's Box by taking legal action against clients.
  • #6,447
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:34am Jan 23, 2015 6:34am
A representative will be with you in 10 minutes. If you would like to provide feedback at the end of this chat, please complete FXCM’s Feedback Survey by clicking “Close” at the top right.

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Well this is fun.
"Risk comes from not knowing what you're doing." - Warren Buffett
  • #6,448
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:37am Jan 23, 2015 6:37am
Quoting spaceduck
{quote} For all those that have a negative-balance issue, if it's a small amount, just pay it. If it's a big amount, just try to offer a deal to fxcm. If you don't want to pay it back, at least consult a lawyer or somebody in your country that can tell you about the danger that may be involved in doing so (again, different countries have different laws).
Horrible advice mate, horrible !

In FXCMīs policy of no debit balances is stated "At FXCM, your maximum your risk of loss is limited by the amount in your account". FXCM advertised with this to attract customers everywhere they had the opportunity to promote themselves.

In that case these kind of force majeure clauses are in every civilized country not legally valid and will not hold up in a court because clients are evidently misled.

Moreover why should this swissie debacle be a force majeure event. 99 percent of brokers are up and running after this event no force majeure there !. If nearly every broker would go bust because of this then yes, this might be a force majeure event.

Donīt pay anything let them go to court and then find a lawyer together with all other victims of this debacle so you can share costs. Donīt let their representatives like Spaceduck intimidate of pressure you by other means.
  • #6,449
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:40am Jan 23, 2015 6:40am
Quoting barkie
{quote} Horrible advice mate, horrible ! In FXCMīs policy of no debit balances is stated "At FXCM, your maximum your risk of loss is limited by the amount in your account". FXCM advertised with this to attract customers everywhere they had the opportunity to promote themselves. In that case these kind of force majeure clauses are in every civilized country not legally valid and will not hold up in a court because clients are evidently misled. Moreover why should this swissie debacle be a force majeure event. 99 percent of brokers are up and running...


Well said...
Chasing The Dream...
  • #6,450
  • Jan 23, 2015 6:54am Jan 23, 2015 6:54am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} I really can't see any court anywhere in the world agreeing with the retailer that is refusing to pay back FXCM, pretty cut and dry. It is there in black and white, I can't see how you can wiggle your way out of that one.
A judge will look to many aspects like how did FXCM communicate, is this a force majeure then why 99 percent had not these problems ant it will apply this rule to reasonableness and fairness and so on.

Lets say someone with a 5k account has now a 100k negative balance. Do you seriously think any judge in any civilized country will decide he has to pay this amount back.

Common man lol

Moral of this story, do not pay anything !
  • #6,451
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:01am Jan 23, 2015 7:01am
This may have been posted - http://forexmagnates.com/covered-brokers-forgive-negative-balance-following-chf-crisis/
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: FXCM - Losses 13.PNG Size: 6 KB
TSLA: 30-Dec-22 123.18 // 16-Jun-23 260.54 **111.51%**
  • #6,452
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:06am Jan 23, 2015 7:06am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} Read the terms and conditions, you agreed to pay them, see my post above. There is no way you are going to get out of it. Get some legal advise and bring the FULL terms and conditions with you, any lawyer anywhere in the world is going to tell you to pay up. {quote} Because their Terms and conditions specifically say it is and you agreed to it.
Hold on there, even if the contracts state this and they try to twist the terms to squeeze their clients they can NOT supercede regulations to follow "market praxis" and conduct business in good faith towards its clients. I can't see FXCM trying to enforce this through courts, not only would they lose their existing client base, but could open up a Pandora's Box with a possible charge of Gross Negligence on their Risk Management policies when most other brokers had minor or no damage.
  • #6,453
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:06am Jan 23, 2015 7:06am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} {quote} Because their Terms and conditions specifically say it is and you agreed to it.
That doesnīt mean shite.

If I sell a vacuum cleaner and advertise with a 2 year guarantee under all circumstances and you buy it from me you have a 2 year guarantee.

Even if there is in the general terms and conditions just a half year guarantee. You might have to go to court but you will get it.

Point is FXCM deliberately didnīt refer to this Force Majeure clause in their advertisements while promoting their policy of no debit balances. In fact FXCM advertised by stating debit balances are impossible. This is STILL published on their website.
  • #6,454
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:08am Jan 23, 2015 7:08am
Quoting barkie
{quote} That doesnīt mean shite. If I sell a vacuum cleaner and advertise with a 2 year guarantee under all circumstances and you buy it from me you have a 2 year guarantee. Even if there is in the general terms and conditions just a half year guarantee. Point is FXCM deliberately didnīt refer to this Force Majeure clause in their advertisements while promoting their policy of no debit balances. In fact FXCM advertised by stating debit balances are impossible. This is STILL on their website.
Smells like a big fat fine from the NFA to me
  • #6,455
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:14am Jan 23, 2015 7:14am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} Seriously? You think they haven't already ran this by them?
Never underestimate the NFA or the SEC.
I believe that they got 300 mil instead of 225 mil they needed for the fines
  • #6,456
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:21am Jan 23, 2015 7:21am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} FXCM clearly states in their T&C's the following: {quote} Seems pretty clear and obvious to me, the SNB dropped the floor (they directly and explicitly refer to such an act in their terms) , FXCM enacted their Force Majeure policy as stated in their T&C's and any promise of "negative balance protection" earlier in the terms is now no longer valid and they can take any and all steps necessary to protect their business and other customers. I really can't see any court anywhere in the world agreeing with the retailer that is refusing to pay...
Sorry but negative balance does NOT mean debt or an obligation to pay unless explicitly stated so. In many cases, client agreements are so vaguely formulated that many retailers mistake negative balance being equal to a debt obligation when it could really just mean not being able to trade on the account or open a new account until the balance is set to zero.

And the clauses you quoted in no way state that negative balance equals a debt obligation.
  • #6,457
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:22am Jan 23, 2015 7:22am
Neither FXCM or any of you so far mention about fxcm's Product Disclosure Statement.

For fxcm not to mention it obvious, because in that (or those, since they have copies for each country, i.e, Aus, UK, and US) fxcm clearly and explicitly states that traders are not liable for negative balances. This is their PDS, not promotional videos or marketing campaign, but PDS!

This is the link for Australia fxcm, http://www.forextrading.com.au/legal...re-statements/

I'll even copy the paragraphs from pg.29:

Attached Image


Any comment?
  • #6,458
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:26am Jan 23, 2015 7:26am
Before signing up at FXCM I read all their T&Cs regarding the no-debt policy. I found loopholes, that would render the no-debt policy void. So I contacted FXCM asking for details and one representative in their chat support kept repeating that I would not be held accountable for negative balances. Upon me reiterating the loopholes in the agreement, he lastly said, that in the end "you [me] would have to trust us [FXCM]". (I do have a log of the chat btw).

So what do you think... I trusted them, and this is the result. Fortunately I was not involved in CHF markets but I do feel for those who were short.

And by the way: Jeopardizing ones entire business on the idea the floor would not break is horrible risk management, or no risk managment at all. They were well aware of their client's short CHF exposure. Even with just a few hundred pips slippage, a substantial loss would have occured due to negative balances. What were they thinking?!
  • #6,459
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:44am Jan 23, 2015 7:44am
Let's wait for the official FXCM statement, shall we?
  • #6,460
  • Jan 23, 2015 7:46am Jan 23, 2015 7:46am
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} Seriously? You think they haven't already ran this by them?
No I don't think they ran this by the regulators, I think they are desperate to follow the terms of the bailout they had no choice but to accept. Now they are reaching for any straw to survive, I believe there will be a sh*storm if they try to legally enforce this, not only from clients, but regulators, better business bureau, possibly even criminal/gross negligence.....
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