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  • #44,841
  • Nov 30, 2024 8:25pm Nov 30, 2024 8:25pm
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} the same work that will require more time because of the consistency rule and payout requirements … less pay but faster payouts <> more pay but later payouts
Not sure how do you define faster payout. Lets consider forex prop firm you have 2 phases if you YOLO it they will most probably deny you or ban you. Permanent close. So one has to trade at least 1-2 week per phase so total 1 month to be on safe side plus 2 weeks for first payout so total 6 weeks.
Futures prop firm you YOLO in 1 to 3 days even with 50% consistency you pass in 1 week. Trade for another 1 week with 20% consistency worst case 2 weeks so you get 100% payout in 3 weeks.
Also futures prop firm don't ban you they may close account or remove payout which is big difference.
Only advantage of forex prop firm is diversification, more assets swing trading and static drawdown.
  • #44,842
  • Nov 30, 2024 8:28pm Nov 30, 2024 8:28pm
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} this is what FTMO says ; {image} this is what The5ers say ; {image} this is what Ed Seykota ,1 of the biggest traders in history says ; {image} and another famous market wizard , Larry Hite ; {image} www.jackschwager.com
People use prop firm not to become better trader especially online prop firms. They are tool to make quick money as you don't know if they exists after 6 months.
By your logic one should take 1 year to pass eval stage as hedge fund hardly returns 10-15% annually. Who trades like that. hedge funds do that because they have billions to take care.
  • #44,843
  • Edited Dec 1, 2024 5:44am Nov 30, 2024 9:37pm | Edited Dec 1, 2024 5:44am
Quoting sampat
{quote} Not sure how do you define faster payout. Lets consider forex prop firm you have 2 phases if you YOLO it they will most probably deny you or ban you. Permanent close. So one has to trade at least 1-2 week per phase so total 1 month to be on safe side plus 2 weeks for first payout so total 6 weeks. Futures prop firm you YOLO in 1 to 3 days even with 50% consistency you pass in 1 week. Trade for another 1 week with 20% consistency worst case 2 weeks so you get 100% payout in 3 weeks. Also futures prop firm don't ban you they may close account...
The best offer currently for YOLO from a prop broker wit MT4 is Rapid Blueberry, which I reviewed for a $50k account. It’s now priced at $140 (30% discount) with a 7-calendar-day challenge and a trailing drawdown. The target is only 5%, with a maximum drawdown of 4% and a daily drawdown of 3%. Payouts are every 14 days. Lot size is no longer an issue as there’s an adjustment here: https://help.blueberryfunded.com/en/...0-margin-level. However, it's challenging to win 5 consecutive trades at 1% each. So far, I've never been successful in training. Maven offers unlimited time.

They started offering lower prices, following the trend of the $50k futures challenge pricing, although some still include activation fees (above $100). I think one day, if there are not many interested traders, they might lower it to about $100.

Edit: Remove later comment about Blue Guardian Future
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  • #44,844
  • Nov 30, 2024 9:41pm Nov 30, 2024 9:41pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Monty, Is Tradeify the same as TickTick on the direct to funded, once you hit the 7500 threshold (150K) you can pull the 3K from within the buffer? Then just make 3K to get it back to the 157500 and withdrawal 3K again......I do now tradeify requires 9000 now on new accounts, but same concept, you pull from within the "safety net"?
yes hit 9k and pull 3k out..... but it require 10 trading days with 250$ atleast profit on each day..... they have two payout windows....
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #44,845
  • Nov 30, 2024 9:49pm Nov 30, 2024 9:49pm
in recent times tradeify is best new comer firm doing stuff in the right way.... THats why they have gained too traction so early.....
We need more firms like this... MOre competition better for us prop traders....
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #44,846
  • Edited 11:36pm Nov 30, 2024 11:00pm | Edited 11:36pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I guess since I've done both and now fully transitioned to futures, I may be byased. However, the facts are the facts. Perhaps it is simply the futures firms learned from the forex firms mistakes and the live account is the "out" to get rid of you. Tradeify says they are going to copy you in live, so in addition to the 100% payout, you'll get 10% on top......pretty cool concept. The way I see it, the forex props were 100% misleading from the get go while the futures firms are far more transparent. I didn't care about the model of the forex...
Based on my personal trading data YTD, taking 1 2-step Forex challenge continuously with no days off @ 20% DD trade risk was a 70% pass rate, 1-4 weeks to pass.... 51% pass rate on the futures side with trailing @ 20% DD trade risk, 1-4 weeks to pass... 55% pass rate with trailing @ red news 100% DD trade risk, 1 day to pass. 38% pass rate with trailing @ NYOpen 100% DD trade risk, 1 day to pass.

1.3-1.5 DD to target ratios w/ Static DD are a big deal, but I will never go back. I miss the good old days with reliable 6 figure payout potential @ MFF & FTMO. Now outside of a few firms which US citizens can no longer access, >5K and you have to pray you will get paid... the meta replacement platforms, slippage & non FX spreads all suck by comparison to futures. MFFX & Alpha are cluster fuck operations on the FX side & model corp citizens on the Futures side.
  • #44,847
  • Dec 1, 2024 2:58am Dec 1, 2024 2:58am
Trailing DD for me is a no. I understand how and why it works but i do not want to use it any more than I have already.

If CFD prop did trailing like futures and had no slippage, which is not real life, would you use more CFD prop?

Most of my funded account the slippage is slightly higher than what market has at the time but not enough to affect my trading although if the commission is higher than $5 per lot i certainly feel it
  • #44,848
  • Dec 1, 2024 6:27am Dec 1, 2024 6:27am
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} this is what FTMO says ; {image} this is what The5ers say ; {image} this is what Ed Seykota ,1 of the biggest traders in history says ; {image} and another famous market wizard , Larry Hite ; {image} www.jackschwager.com
The irony of that is Seykota defending to risk 1% if you have a 10K account. That means 100 per trade.

However, when 5ers or FTMO defend 1% risk over 100K accounts (which is not 100K, it's just the 10K DD), they are, in fact, promoting people to risk 10% of their account and not just 1%.
  • #44,849
  • Edited 7:35am Dec 1, 2024 6:50am | Edited 7:35am
Quoting sampat
{quote} Not sure how do you define faster payout. Lets consider forex prop firm you have 2 phases if you YOLO it they will most probably deny you or ban you. Permanent close. So one has to trade at least 1-2 week per phase so total 1 month to be on safe side plus 2 weeks for first payout so total 6 weeks. Futures prop firm you YOLO in 1 to 3 days even with 50% consistency you pass in 1 week. Trade for another 1 week with 20% consistency worst case 2 weeks so you get 100% payout in 3 weeks. Also futures prop firm don't ban you they may close account...
you dont have to Yolo to pass fast with a forex firm, let’s take the FTMO 100K account , target 10K , drawdown 10K

Our trade has a 10 pips stoploss , we risk 10% of drawdown or $1000 , the max 1% risk/trade that FTMO aks for, so $100/pip > 10 lots, not anywhere close to the allowed 50:1 leverage , no yolo here

you catch a runner of 100 pips , you made 100X100= $10K , flip 3 extra days to get to the 4 minimum days and you passed phase 1




now make the same trade with a STF Tradeify 150K account , target 9K , drawdown 7.5K , not the same target/drawdown but close enough to make my point.

10 pips stoploss , 10% of drawdown or $750 so $75/pip > 6 contracts

Here the trade will make you 100X75 = 7.5K

now you have to make 7.5K X 5 = 37.5K instead of the initial 9K because of the 20% consistency to be able to get a payout of 3K as long as your best day stays under 7,5K, now you have really to work your ass off

with FTMO only 5K left to make in the second phase and after that no caps on payout’s and all the other requirements of Tradeify
besides that , static drawdown, lower target/drawdown ratio
  • #44,850
  • Dec 1, 2024 6:58am Dec 1, 2024 6:58am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The irony of that is Seykota defending to risk 1% if you have a 10K account. That means 100 per trade. However, when 5ers or FTMO defend 1% risk over 100K accounts (which is not 100K, it's just the 10K DD), they are, in fact, promoting people to risk 10% of their account and not just 1%.
the 1% risk filter changes the data type. If their user base drops ticket size significantly (from 4 or 5% risk to 1%) there are more real opportunities for them to do more than bucket the orders. The risk down doesn't encourage blowing accounts if this type of risk control is manage properly they can potentially make money from data. This nuance most people online dont understand as doing something with higher ticket size is harder as it pertain more risk.
  • #44,851
  • Edited 8:33am Dec 1, 2024 8:07am | Edited 8:33am
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} you dont have to Yolo to pass fast with a forex firm, let’s take the FTMO 100K account , target 10K , drawdown 10K Our trade has a 10 pips stoploss , we risk 10% of drawdown or $1000 , the max 1% risk/trade that FTMO aks for, so $100/pip > 10 lots, not anywhere close to the allowed 50:1 leverage , no yolo here you catch a runner of 100 pips , you made 100X100= $10K , flip 3 extra days to get to the 4 minimum days and you passed phase 1 now make the same trade with a STF Tradeify 150K account , target 9K , drawdown 7.5K , not the same target/drawdown...
All this things were true before MyForexFunds fiasco. Now try to do it they won't even give you funded accounts forget about doing it on live accounts. You may get lucky here and there but not always. On future firm why would you take 9K profit on same day you can have 3 to 20 accounts reduce size and do that on multiple accounts. Most of the forex prop firms have anti gambling rule which allows them to fuck any account of any size which makes profit no matter what stop loss you put as stop loss doesn't guarantee any thing. Only thing guaranteed less risk is reduced leverage and if you do that you don't make much profit on single day.

The main intent of these prop firm is NOT to boost ego and prove better trader but MILK them and stay under radar. Get only 3 digit or lower 4 digit payout and trade 1 lot at max on 100K account on forex. Your probability of getting banned is reduced significantly.
  • #44,852
  • Dec 1, 2024 9:32am Dec 1, 2024 9:32am
Quoting sampat
{quote} All this things were true before MyForexFunds fiasco. Now try to do it they won't even give you funded accounts forget about doing it on live accounts. You may get lucky here and there but not always. On future firm why would you take 9K profit on same day you can have 3 to 20 accounts reduce size and do that on multiple accounts. Most of the forex prop firms have anti gambling rule which allows them to fuck any account of any size which makes profit no matter what stop loss you put as stop loss doesn't guarantee any thing. Only thing guaranteed...
My payouts are specific to the firms reputation. I will take higher payout from e8 than say fundednext (I dont use fundednext because scam). The more reputable ones i will take more from because i dont want stress to have to email over and over. If someone start to drag feet i just ditch the account and send note to authorities without any conversation with the firm.
  • #44,853
  • Dec 1, 2024 9:36am Dec 1, 2024 9:36am
Quoting Takisd
Trailing DD for me is a no. I understand how and why it works but i do not want to use it any more than I have already. If CFD prop did trailing like futures and had no slippage, which is not real life, would you use more CFD prop? Most of my funded account the slippage is slightly higher than what market has at the time but not enough to affect my trading although if the commission is higher than $5 per lot i certainly feel it
Fills have been pretty much the same with my live @ AMP vs futures props but admittedly that is 4-6 NQ live vs 30-60 NQ across prop accounts in sim. >30 NQ live = entering slipped to hell territory.

Non mt4/5 is a major road block, but if forced I could adjust. I can also deal with somewhat bad slippage & non competitive spreads, it's the cost of doing business. The really massive problem is large payout reliability. There is nothing worse than putting in weeks of time following all the rules to just be denied for 'we just don't want to pay you' reasons. I typically have at least 2-3 15-25% months in a year, with 200-400K funding that is a 24-80K payout @ 80% split, no one outside of maybe FTMO is still paying those amounts on the FX side.
  • #44,854
  • Dec 1, 2024 9:51am Dec 1, 2024 9:51am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} Fills have been pretty much the same with my live @ AMP vs futures props but admittedly that is 4-6 NQ live vs 30-60 NQ across prop accounts in sim. >30 NQ live = entering slipped to hell territory. Non mt4/5 is a major road block, but if forced I could adjust. I can also deal with somewhat bad slippage & non competitive spreads, it's the cost of doing business. The really massive problem is large payout reliability. There is nothing worse than putting in weeks of time following all the rules to just be denied for 'we just don't want to...
It will change this year. I think by Q3 if you are not american the CFD prop industry will look very different.. all the social media clowns go to futures now so they will go through the end 23-24 CFD dramas. They all depend on new money in and now so many competitors with better conditions its only matter of time. Meanwhile CFD has had to start innovation it is coming.
  • #44,855
  • Dec 1, 2024 10:27am Dec 1, 2024 10:27am
Quoting CableJ
The really massive problem is large payout reliability.
It’s going to stay that way for as long as they’re unregulated.

Regulation will come, eventually, and will improve everything for all customers - including the overall integrity and honesty of the entire industry, which benefits us all.

But whatever happens, and whenever, there’ll still always be a very small, ever-intransigent, ever-opinionated minority of alt-right idiots who will find some way to complain about regulation just because they hate regulation, however much it actually benefits all of us. There's no way to avoid that.
  • #44,856
  • Dec 1, 2024 10:31am Dec 1, 2024 10:31am
Quoting Quickly
{quote} It’s going to stay that way for as long as they’re unregulated. Regulation will come, eventually, and will improve everything for all customers - including the overall integrity and honesty of the entire industry, which benefits us all. But whatever happens, and whenever, there’ll still always be a very small, ever-intransigent, ever-opinionated minority of alt-right idiots who will find some way to complain about regulation just because they hate regulation, however much it actually benefits all of us. There's no way to avoid that. ...
How regulation will improve? Did regulation improve forex industry in US and Canada? Any thing that government meddles goes to shit. Look at forex.com or Oanda spreads which are considered as gold standard reliable regulated broker their normal spreads are 2 pips on average.
  • #44,857
  • Dec 1, 2024 10:38am Dec 1, 2024 10:38am
Regulation at the very least, of the people who are allowed to enter the market, is welcome. 20 year old hassan from london shouldn't be running around talking as an authority for a business that handles large funds and the behavior has to be deterred to bring legitimacy.
  • #44,858
  • Dec 1, 2024 11:09am Dec 1, 2024 11:09am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} the 1% risk filter changes the data type. If their user base drops ticket size significantly (from 4 or 5% risk to 1%) there are more real opportunities for them to do more than bucket the orders. The risk down doesn't encourage blowing accounts if this type of risk control is manage properly they can potentially make money from data. This nuance most people online dont understand as doing something with higher ticket size is harder as it pertain more risk.
I understand that but this doesn't change the fact that 1% risk in a 100K account with 10K DD is 10% risk per trade, which is insane in a real account, and this is basically what they're promoting as something wise.

I like your idea of targeting payout according with reputation. It's obvious and I must confess that never did that.
  • #44,859
  • Dec 1, 2024 11:12am Dec 1, 2024 11:12am
Quoting Quickly
{quote} It’s going to stay that way for as long as they’re unregulated. Regulation will come, eventually, and will improve everything for all customers - including the overall integrity and honesty of the entire industry, which benefits us all. But whatever happens, and whenever, there’ll still always be a very small, ever-intransigent, ever-opinionated minority of alt-right idiots who will find some way to complain about regulation just because they hate regulation, however much it actually benefits all of us. There's no way to avoid that. ...
Regulation will force them to provide live accounts to all, as soon as challenge is passed. This would be the end of the online industry as we know it because no prop would survive.

Not to speak about direct funding models. This would be dead even before the law was approved.
  • #44,860
  • Dec 1, 2024 11:21am Dec 1, 2024 11:21am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Regulation will force them to provide live accounts to all, as soon as challenge is passed. This would be the end of the online industry as we know it because no prop would survive. Not to speak about direct funding models. This would be dead even before the law was approved.
Direct funding is already illegal in major jurisdictions as its just leverage. All it takes is for an interpretation that the money is a deposit and thats it.
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