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  • #42,601
  • Sep 27, 2024 2:07pm Sep 27, 2024 2:07pm
I have analyzed and described in full here how they internally do the calculations on their challenge offers. Also the 90/90/90 rule their hope as prop firm owner.
  • #42,602
  • Sep 27, 2024 4:42pm Sep 27, 2024 4:42pm
Quoting Takisd
wow, finally elitetrader are coming to the table and realizing that futures or CFD it doesn't really matter both are the same thing in the end.
Difference is that exchanges (and regulators indirectly) take a cut in futures
  • #42,603
  • Sep 27, 2024 4:44pm Sep 27, 2024 4:44pm
Quoting Quickly
{quote} OMG the ignorance is absolutely breathtaking. This one is on a par with the way he thought the MFF case must be criminal proceedings (because he didn’t understand that civil law/courts and criminal law/courts are two totally different things) and then even kept on trying to “be right” about it, even after everyone tried to explain how wrong he was. Plagiarists, idiots, scammers, spammers - they’re all alive and well and living at FF.
Takisd was being figurative. You need to read between lines.
  • #42,604
  • Sep 27, 2024 4:46pm Sep 27, 2024 4:46pm
Quoting TrAndy1
The good thing about Elitetrader there is a counter about the number of likes you got lifetime so far. I have many likes on Elitetrader and I am pretty sure that I am the most liked person here in this thread. I did not counted all the likes from all persons but I am sure I am on TOP here. SO I have provided a lot of good and valuable content. Since recently some people are haters, maybe because of this and that I have provided so many useful insights and good infos, that they wanna shit around all the time and personally attacking me. Just ignore...
I think you completely derailed with the Bespoke episode and from then on your participation was never the same anymore. Just my honest opinion and not a personal attack.
  • #42,605
  • Sep 27, 2024 4:50pm Sep 27, 2024 4:50pm
Quoting TrAndy1
There is also a problem with this thread as it is so widespreaded around in the prop firm business, that easily, you can imagine, they can have paid actors here! I would not be surprised by that at all. It is a logical consequence when someone says you a sure way how to print money on a prop firm, those FF members come here and have nothing else to say, but only negative. Just others get the impression there is something not correct. But you need to be prudent to read also between the lines, especially when such posts with personal attacks are coming....
Cheating groups from Pakistan and Vietnam existed still when MFF was operating and well before hedging started to be mentioned here. There were even bans of those countries in some props. When you talked about it here, cheating was already spread long time ago (though not so much as today).
  • #42,606
  • Sep 27, 2024 10:14pm Sep 27, 2024 10:14pm
Quoting TrAndy1
There is also a problem with this thread as it is so widespreaded around in the prop firm business, that easily, you can imagine, they can have paid actors here! I would not be surprised by that at all. It is a logical consequence when someone says you a sure way how to print money on a prop firm, those FF members come here and have nothing else to say, but only negative. Just others get the impression there is something not correct. But you need to be prudent to read also between the lines, especially when such posts with personal attacks are coming....
From my experience I am telling you that even if you have world's best strategy that will fail too, & no guaranteed method will work out if you don't follow it properly, lack patience & discipline and thinks something like yeah now I can make the most money and the quickest. Money will make automatically just follow the plan properly.
  • #42,607
  • Edited 1:33am Sep 28, 2024 1:04am | Edited 1:33am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} They should go further and define what size is allowed for that additional "entry". I doubt that 1 contract + 5 contracts is something allowed. It's probably in the most recent rules (which I haven't read because I paused Apex, despite I still have there all my funded accounts).
Here are their rules covering your concerns:

"SCALING / ADDING INTO TRADES: Contractor / Trader may take initial entries according to strategy or system entry rules and add into it as the market moves their biased direction. For example, you enter a trade going Long. The market goes long, creating a positive PnL, and you feel the market is strong, will continue, or your system gives another entry signal or indication, so you enter another entry going long, whether it one contract or multiple, that is fine. Scaling into winning trades is allowed in the PA Account is understood that larger contract sizes overall will be used in this situation, which is acceptable. There is a difference in adding in additional size versus going all in at once for a windfall attempt with no strategy. Entering according to a rule, being right in the directional bias, seeing opportunity or signal for additional entries, for a continuing market, and be able to add to that in an attempt to ride the market and let your profits run is in line with a strategy. There was a plan, a reason, a directional bias that was correct. You were right, your system entry was accurate in direction, so you added in when the accurate direction was determined. This is an accepted action in the Apex PA Account. Now, what if your bias and system had been wrong in the immediate direction of the market move?
Dollar Cost Averaging (DCA): Dollar Cost Averaging, for this contract, is defined as the practice of entering a trade with a directional bias (or no bias- just entering to gamble) , and the market goes against you in the other direction, but continuing to enter more and more orders, multiple times, in the direction of the original order, even while market continues and continues to go the opposing way. Note this is the opposite of the example above. Scaling into winning trades and adding more when you were RIGHT, versus, adding in more and more when you were wrong, in hopes of a turn around and to make up some losses from the initial entry being in the wrong direction, are two very different scenarios. The use of Dollar Cost Averaging with multiple additional entries is Prohibited and in breach of the Apex PA Account and can result in forfeit and closure of account.
For Example: You enter long, and the market immediately moves 10-20 ticks short, against you. Your open PnL is negative and showing an unrealized loss currently. The market could continue going down against you, or it could have simply pulled down for a moment and may turn back in your favor, you do not know. So every “xxxx” ticks it goes against you, or every time you hit a certain level it goes against you, you continue to add more and more into a losing position. This trading practice is prohibited in the Apex PA Account. Yes, this strategy ends up working out many times for some people and the market pulls back up and can gain back losses and at times very nice profits once the trade closes out. It works, until it just doesn’t work! It is like having a 90% win rate system that makes you $10 every time. So after 9 trades you have a $90 profit. But that one trade day where the market keeps flying down and just doesn’t stop, can wipe out all the profits from the previous 9 or even 99 trades and wipe out a whole account. This is strategy that does not have long term sustainability and is often times misused and abused by gamblers, windfall traders, schemes, and those taking advantage of the Trader Funding Program
PERMITTED and ACCEPTED use of DCA Scenario: Apex will allow traders to enter one additional entry only into an open position that currently has a negative PNL. But only a single additional entry execution, after the initial entry, not multiple additional entries. Contract size of the additional entry is not regulated and is at the discretion of the trader, just be sure to keep good risk management practices. DCA has always been prohibited and listed as prohibited in the Apex PA contact and FAQ on the website. This allowance for one additional entry is an update and an “easing” of the restrictions.
Example of this Permitted DCA Scenario: Again, let’s say the system gave an entry signal to go long, so you enter a long position. The market then starts to go short, and moves against you for example 10 ticks. Could keep going short or could turn around. All traders have experienced a pullback in the market before it comes back in your direction of bias. Let's say for example 15 ticks below your original entry is a level of support. You can see that, read the market, have understanding of support / resist levels, Fibs, etc etc and could see a bounce from there. That is an understandable and valid possibility. There is reason, market reading, market understanding, planning and purpose. Not just randomly pressing buttons to enter more and more in hopes of lucking out. Again, trading Vs Gambling. So, you entered long, it has pulled back short, Apex will allow One single additional entry execution long, but not multiple execution. Multiple additional entries are prohibited and will be a violation of prohibited practices of this contract. There are no restrictions or guidelines on the contract size of that additional entry, reasons, levels, or tools used for determining entry point, timeframes, or distance from original entry. Just maintain risk reward in a responsible manner."
  • #42,608
  • Sep 28, 2024 4:34am Sep 28, 2024 4:34am
Ok guys..

Taming a prop.

You read here, elsewhere things like 'we milked the prop' as in we figured out with this prop how to win and therefore withdraw profits.
Obviously, some props are or have been easier to find a way with.
Apparently, they are tightening their belts now. Been actually since mff.

So. if you manage to win and constantly withdraw profits with a prop, it's fair to say you have tamed that prop.
Sorta like how to train your dragon animation where dragons are tamed by certain effort and technique etc.


So, I wrote all that in order for this question to make sense:

If you manage to tame ftmo, does it mean you could or by extension you should be able to tame any prop?
  • #42,609
  • Sep 28, 2024 5:00am Sep 28, 2024 5:00am
Quoting OutThere
Ok guys.. Taming a prop. You read here, elsewhere things like 'we milked the prop' as in we figured out with this prop how to win and therefore withdraw profits. Obviously, some props are or have been easier to find a way with. Apparently, they are tightening their belts now. Been actually since mff. So. if you manage to win and constantly withdraw profits with a prop, it's fair to say you have tamed that prop. Sorta like how to train your dragon animation where dragons are tamed by certain effort and technique etc. So, I wrote all that in order...
Your mission in props is to trade and make money. It's not different from one prop to another, unless your system is too dependent on spreads, commissions and execution (there are significant differences in props on that).

Apart from this, nothing else unless praying to be paid. We have to pray less in FTMO and 5ers, than in Alpha or FXIFY, but that you already know.

Maybe I missed your point.
  • #42,610
  • Sep 28, 2024 6:30am Sep 28, 2024 6:30am
what i do not understand about people who want to be traders is why they complain a prop does not have the rules they want. Vote with your wallet and buy elsewhere making posts on forums or social media is just strange. If you follow many x posts you will see large numbers of comments "remove rule Y" "You are scam because rule z". If rules dont suit you, dont buy the product.
  • #42,611
  • Sep 28, 2024 6:50am Sep 28, 2024 6:50am
Quoting Takisd
what i do not understand about people who want to be traders is why they complain a prop does not have the rules they want. Vote with your wallet and buy elsewhere making posts on forums or social media is just strange. If you follow many x posts you will see large numbers of comments "remove rule Y" "You are scam because rule z". If rules dont suit you, dont buy the product.
Many wanted to be THE sure get paid winner and a whinning baby who missed mummy's mammary ducts for the next dose of milk.
Props are basically for gamblers not for traders nor investor per se. It is for gamblers who want to feel the adrenaline rush when they hit the target of each challenge just like a junky would when the morphine travel round the veins. It is not for wannabe traders looking for easy money, it is for gamblers to easily lost their fortune.
  • #42,612
  • Sep 28, 2024 8:17am Sep 28, 2024 8:17am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Your mission in props is to trade and make money. It's not different from one prop to another, unless your system is too dependent on spreads, commissions and execution (there are significant differences in props on that). Apart from this, nothing else unless praying to be paid. We have to pray less in FTMO and 5ers, than in Alpha or FXIFY, but that you already know. Maybe I missed your point.
I am doing with FXIFY, have no complaints at all until now.

The payout stage has not come in my account.

Yesterday, i tried to open Rise account as a contractor, it went smooth in the biginning, but did not go thro in the question,

1 ) Are you tax resident of usa
yes,
no.

I clicked no.

2) It recognised through my address, I live in canada.
I entered canadian Tax number.

But did not go though.

I stopped for the time being
Intraday only.
  • #42,613
  • Sep 28, 2024 8:23am Sep 28, 2024 8:23am
And after blowing Apex and my funded futures 50k account, I am trying my best to trade in " TRADEDAY" demo, 50k account

1) Am trying to master strategy by taking 1 or 2 entries .
2) Analysis on s & p 500, gold, I do thro my FXIFY account, and implement in Tradovate account.
3) Learning how to control trailing draw down in 2 ways.
a) Based on end of day equity
b) Based on highest equity.

Will domo few more days before jumping live with myfunded futures, Tradeify.
Intraday only.
  • #42,614
  • Sep 28, 2024 11:08am Sep 28, 2024 11:08am
Quoting failinforex
{quote} Many wanted to be THE sure get paid winner and a whinning baby who missed mummy's mammary ducts for the next dose of milk. Props are basically for gamblers not for traders nor investor per se. It is for gamblers who want to feel the adrenaline rush when they hit the target of each challenge just like a junky would when the morphine travel round the veins. It is not for wannabe traders looking for easy money, it is for gamblers to easily lost their fortune.
Great point. On darwinex/ personal account, I am aiming for 2-2.5% monthly.
With the futures props, I am aiming for $50-$100 daily, and I'm probably in the lowest 10% as far as risk with these companies.......with $2,500 DD, this is 2-4% DAILY!!!!!
It is doable, as long as your losing days are capped at that same 2-4%.
But, to your point, prop trading is the farthest thing from real trading, for 90%+++ of folks.
I would bet good money, many prop traders have never even traded real money in a personal account.
Myself, when my government permitted me to use the forex props, and I know several others here who did the same, I treated available DD as I would a full personal account, risking 2% per trade, say $200 on a 100K with a 10K DD.
  • #42,615
  • Edited 1:59pm Sep 28, 2024 12:25pm | Edited 1:59pm
Quoting pipmaster77
Myself, when my government permitted me to use the forex props, and I know several others here who did the same, I treated available DD as I would a full personal account, risking 2% per trade, say $200 on a 100K with a 10K DD.
That's probably the only point where we disagree. I think props are something that may end at any time, both because of regulations, or because they go bankruptcy.

2% over 10K DD (so $200 per trade) is very responsible risk wise (I'm even more cautious in my own personal account) but may be a bit conservative for something we should milk fast and as much as we can (but not to the point of being banned).

I was way too aggressive when I started in props, several years ago, but if you risk 1% of the account, which would be a 10% reckless risk on 10K DD, I think it's still the right thing to do in props. From time to time we bust some accounts and restart, while prop exists and allow us. Obviously would be very stupid to risk all DD in 1 trades as many do.
I'm talking about props in general, not darwin which is a completely different thing.
  • #42,616
  • Sep 28, 2024 2:58pm Sep 28, 2024 2:58pm
Yes, keep in mind, I haven't traded forex props in over a year. In their hayday, 2001-2002, I was one of the naive that thought I was building a long-term income stream. I certainly wouldn't trade them like that today. As I stated, with the futures props, I currently aim for 2-4% daily. I may take a few accounts and start trying to hit targets in 2-3 trades, just to build up the personal account quicker with the payouts.
One thing for sure, Darwin and personal is all I plan on having in the next 2-3 years, either by my choice or not(regulators, insolvency, etc, etc.)
  • #42,617
  • Edited 11:41pm Sep 28, 2024 4:14pm | Edited 11:41pm
Quoting pipmaster77
Yes, keep in mind, I haven't traded forex props in over a year. In their hayday, 2001-2002, I was one of the naive that thought I was building a long-term income stream. I certainly wouldn't trade them like that today. As I stated, with the futures props, I currently aim for 2-4% daily. I may take a few accounts and start trying to hit targets in 2-3 trades, just to build up the personal account quicker with the payouts. One thing for sure, Darwin and personal is all I plan on having in the next 2-3 years, either by my choice or not(regulators,...
I know for some months now, for American residents, meta quotes have stopped providing services.

Even thro prop firms, or forex firms.

Why is that ?

Is it due to CFTC ?

For Canadians, brokers operating from Canada are allowed to provide service. Oanada and some more brokers for example.
Intraday only.
  • #42,618
  • Sep 28, 2024 5:06pm Sep 28, 2024 5:06pm
Quoting Takisd
what i do not understand about people who want to be traders is why they complain a prop does not have the rules they want. Vote with your wallet and buy elsewhere making posts on forums or social media is just strange. If you follow many x posts you will see large numbers of comments "remove rule Y" "You are scam because rule z". If rules dont suit you, dont buy the product.
-I suspect that they are hoping for change, and believe that if enough people voice their concerns, that they might actually be heard. Probably, some people also have a preference in terms of which prop(s) they are willing to do business with. The feedback can be beneficial. After all, if nothing is said, then we can expect that nothing will change. Certainly, the props would not know what to fix if everyone kept quiet.

It does not seem unreasonable to me, but calling scam is probably not the best approach.
  • #42,619
  • Edited 11:35pm Sep 28, 2024 7:46pm | Edited 11:35pm
I know some of you may ask, why did I not waited and went for the larger TP.

Damn,"You could of made 10% on these trades."

Answer: It is because I stop my trading at 5% Profit per day. Stop trading is one of the very few most important rules in successful trading. And drinking cold IPA beer after gaining 5% on Friday is also not the least important.

5 Min TF Dow Futures Friday.
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  • #42,620
  • Sep 28, 2024 8:21pm Sep 28, 2024 8:21pm
I know you guys are probably wondering why I didn't go for 100% return on this random trade but it's because I'm super disciplined and always cap my profit at 87% per trade. That's why I'm so successful at trading.
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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
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