Prop Firm Hub | Page 2027 | Crypto Craft

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Anyone trading with a Prop firm 31 replies

So I accepted a Prop Trading job in South Beach Miami 44 replies

prop firm new model - my trading journey 871 replies

Attachments: Prop Firm Hub
Exit Attachments

Prop Firm Hub

  • #40,521
  • Aug 11, 2024 4:04am Aug 11, 2024 4:04am
Hi all! Anyone have some experience with FundedNext? Are they legit and worth of consideration? Thank you!
  • #40,522
  • Aug 11, 2024 4:06am Aug 11, 2024 4:06am
I crunched the numbers on Darwinex Zero a bit. The part where I'm a bit confused is trader's revenue model.

So if you start a new subscription tomorrow (Aug 12), your Darwin is going to be ready Sept 2 which gives you a whole month to get seeded. Say you get 3% with 5% max dd. (Interestingly, 2% return with only 1% dd will get you nothing in the first month, but 3&5 gets you 30k.) You continue to maintain your 3% per month with the max dd capped at 5%. So 1st allocation is Oct 1, 2nd Nov 1, 3rd Dec 1, and you'll have 90k AUM. Assuming the 3%pm by end of Dec you'll make €5400 (900+1800+2700) and receive €840 in performance fee. BUT before you get anything you'll have to finance the whole venture which is €170 for the next 5 months. So on Jan 1st, 5 months from now you net out €670. Even if you do 3 accounts that's €2010 for 5 months' work, comparable to a €2.51 hourly wage. I don't think you can actually find a job that would pay less than this. Even if this is a side hustle, assume you'll have to spend an average of half an hour to your account per day which is 10 hours per month, 50 hours for 5, and a whopping €40 hourly wage.

Calculating for Gold isn't any more enticing either. At the end of 2025 you'll net out ~€10k assuming you get the 6 allocations of minimum €50k and have 100k AUM. 10k for a year and a half of work. Of course you can have 10 accounts with max allocations in each then it's 100k but this is getting into pie in the sky territory. For a year and a half you can not make a single mistake (overleverage, underleverage, keep a position for too long, but continuously trade, never go into massive (ie >5%) dd, etc) which means for a year and a half you'll not get a power outage, internet never goes down, you won't get a brainfart, or simply no market meltdown catching you on the wrong foot...

Everyone can weigh which is more realistic, to get 100k from Darwinex (10 accounts!) or from prop shops in a year and a half.

And trying to get investor money seems a pie in the sky dream also. Are there investors with adequate funding? Has anyone seen any of them? What i see is that in July there were only (a record high) 65 Gold seeded traders. And actual outside money is also highly concentrated. There are only 11 Darwins with at least 1 million investors capital and the 20th largest doesn't even reach 200k.

So what am I missing here?
  • #40,523
  • Edited 5:41am Aug 11, 2024 5:25am | Edited 5:41am
Quoting noox
I crunched the numbers on Darwinex Zero a bit. The part where I'm a bit confused is trader's revenue model. So if you start a new subscription tomorrow (Aug 12), your Darwin is going to be ready Sept 2 which gives you a whole month to get seeded. Say you get 3% with 5% max dd. (Interestingly, 2% return with only 1% dd will get you nothing in the first month, but 3&5 gets you 30k.) You continue to maintain your 3% per month with the max dd capped at 5%. So 1st allocation is Oct 1, 2nd Nov 1, 3rd Dec 1, and you'll have 90k AUM. Assuming the 3%pm by...
I didn’t go through your numbers in detail but it is possible that you didn’t miss a thing. What you didn’t consider is that many of us using Darwinex are trading anyway. So executing trades in darwinex don’t practically take any more time I am using trading anyway. It just possibly additional source of income.

I earm most trading my own account. But because I wan’t limit my risk I also trade prop accounts. Darwinex is just one additional layer on big picture.

Most people don’t make any money by trading so in that sense even your calculations looks good.

There seems to be a lot of unsatisfaction to DarwinexZero. I am not saying it is perfect system but good part is that if you don’t like the rules, you can just stop doing it and use other, different model props.
  • #40,524
  • Aug 11, 2024 5:46am Aug 11, 2024 5:46am
Quoting noox
I crunched the numbers on Darwinex Zero a bit. The part where I'm a bit confused is trader's revenue model. So if you start a new subscription tomorrow (Aug 12), your Darwin is going to be ready Sept 2 which gives you a whole month to get seeded. Say you get 3% with 5% max dd. (Interestingly, 2% return with only 1% dd will get you nothing in the first month, but 3&5 gets you 30k.) You continue to maintain your 3% per month with the max dd capped at 5%. So 1st allocation is Oct 1, 2nd Nov 1, 3rd Dec 1, and you'll have 90k AUM. Assuming the 3%pm by...
Your calculations are excellent. Realistic. In Darwinex Zero, that’s indeed one of the main drawbacks—the profit share is very low at only 15% because this firm operates like a hedge fund. If you're aiming for 6% per month, by the second month with a 50k allocation, the returns will also be small. So after the third month, the trader can decide their path. Some others join Darwinex Zero to build a track record. Indeed, it would be difficult without a primary job.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Untitled.jpg Size: 161 KB
fooled by randomness in art
Meditation All Time Return: 8.9%
  • #40,525
  • Aug 11, 2024 5:53am Aug 11, 2024 5:53am
Quoting noox
I crunched the numbers on Darwinex Zero a bit. The part where I'm a bit confused is trader's revenue model. So if you start a new subscription tomorrow (Aug 12), your Darwin is going to be ready Sept 2 which gives you a whole month to get seeded. Say you get 3% with 5% max dd. (Interestingly, 2% return with only 1% dd will get you nothing in the first month, but 3&5 gets you 30k.) You continue to maintain your 3% per month with the max dd capped at 5%. So 1st allocation is Oct 1, 2nd Nov 1, 3rd Dec 1, and you'll have 90k AUM. Assuming the 3%pm by...
Beautiful. Well done.
  • #40,526
  • Aug 11, 2024 6:26am Aug 11, 2024 6:26am
Quoting noox
I crunched the numbers on Darwinex Zero a bit. The part where I'm a bit confused is trader's revenue model. So if you start a new subscription tomorrow (Aug 12), your Darwin is going to be ready Sept 2 which gives you a whole month to get seeded. Say you get 3% with 5% max dd. (Interestingly, 2% return with only 1% dd will get you nothing in the first month, but 3&5 gets you 30k.) You continue to maintain your 3% per month with the max dd capped at 5%. So 1st allocation is Oct 1, 2nd Nov 1, 3rd Dec 1, and you'll have 90k AUM. Assuming the 3%pm by...
I think that's about spot on. Also worth noting that I think payout is a month in arrears as well. It used to be on classic but not sure if it's different on zero?

It would be good if Darwinex makes the investor side as accessible as the zero format. That would be the real pivot point for them if they created like an etoro type setup trading the traders darwins but something is missing.
  • #40,527
  • Aug 11, 2024 6:30am Aug 11, 2024 6:30am
Quoting RoelsMajor
{quote} If you meet the 3 requirements, your account will automatically be included in Darwinex Silver for August once it is created. So, trade until the end of August. Results will be announced, possibly on September 1st. It’s great if you want to continue; the strength of Darwinex’s subscription model you dont have to pay big for the first time. Although the rules are very complex, at least we already know the basics. There are pros and cons. https://www.darwinexzero.com/docs/darwinia-silver {quote} Monthly profits, whether trading...
I am planning to do both Darwinex as well as Traditional prop firm. This is what I intened to do.

What I noticed is... i did better in numbers in darwinex model. If I do similar in traditional prop firm, my payouts will be better.
Less chance of loosing challenge or funded account
Intraday only.
  • #40,528
  • Aug 11, 2024 6:38am Aug 11, 2024 6:38am
Quoting navk
{quote} I am planning to do both Darwinex as well as Traditional prop firm. This is what I intened to do. What I noticed is... i did better in numbers in darwinex model. If I do similar in traditional prop firm, my payouts will be better.
Target 6% per month enough and lets see. Don't go back to traditional prop firms now that broker-backed prop firms exist. I might create another Zero account after 13.
fooled by randomness in art
Meditation All Time Return: 8.9%
  • #40,529
  • Aug 11, 2024 6:40am Aug 11, 2024 6:40am
Quoting kalastaja
{quote} I didn’t go through your numbers in detail but it is possible that you didn’t miss a thing. What you didn’t consider is that many of us using Darwinex are trading anyway. So executing trades in darwinex don’t practically take any more time I am using trading anyway. It just possibly additional source of income. I earm most trading my own account. But because I wan’t limit my risk I also trade prop accounts. Darwinex is just one additional layer on big picture. Most people don’t make any money by trading so in that sense even your calculations...
Exactly on point!
It is just a diversification of accounts (own accounts and different props) . In the end, if money drops from different sources at different dates cannot hurt.

There are many traders gone commercial, profitable and none profitable. Even traderTom is planning to do that. Why do you think so if he has millions? And so much effort for drops!? (btw, all this blabbering about higher cause gets to my nerves too quickly because there is less then 1% chance for this to be true, especially if one plans a youtube channel and commercial EAs.) I decide not to go this pathway. It is much easier to press one more button on one more terminal. It is all about choices. I prefer to have one.


PS
Not to mention I bet there is a really high probability all of you not understanding risk engine and complaining can learn a lot about trading from just participating. Even I did. And I am an old dog.
PVSRA
  • #40,530
  • Aug 11, 2024 7:08am Aug 11, 2024 7:08am
Quoting navk
{quote} I am planning to do both Darwinex as well as Traditional prop firm. This is what I intened to do. What I noticed is... i did better in numbers in darwinex model. If I do similar in traditional prop firm, my payouts will be better. Less chance of loosing challenge or funded account
is there any reason why you could not do similar in traditional prop?
  • #40,531
  • Aug 11, 2024 7:24am Aug 11, 2024 7:24am
Quoting kalastaja
{quote} is there any reason why you could not do similar in traditional prop?
I am going to do similar in traditional prop firm.

I was doing over trading previously.

So, to that extent, Darwinex helped me.

In darwinex, I am not sure and not having any idea at all what the risk engine going to do to slash my returns or drawdown.

Darwinex wants to protect his investors, but I am bothered about how to fill up my pocket in a better way
Intraday only.
  • #40,532
  • Edited 7:53am Aug 11, 2024 7:28am | Edited 7:53am
Any one and everyone need to complain about risk engine until they make it clear what objectives they look for.

If the objectives are not clear, a trader will find a surprise on Monday morning after risk engine black box puts its hand and glove into your trades

A traditional prop firm says clearly what are loss / profit objectives.

Darwinex , if their main intention is to protect investor capital need to put few lines explaining what are the risk objectives, and how they measure it.

Even darwinex themselves may not know what the risk engine is going to do !!
Intraday only.
  • #40,533
  • Aug 11, 2024 7:48am Aug 11, 2024 7:48am
Quoting noox
So what am I missing here?

Nothing.

Everything you said is correct. You’re not missing anything: you’re just rational and not living in a dreamworld like some others here.

Darwin’s entire business model is extremely good for them. Not so much for us, though.
  • #40,534
  • Aug 11, 2024 9:03am Aug 11, 2024 9:03am
Quoting navk
Any one and everyone need to complain about risk engine until they make it clear what objectives they look for. If the objectives are not clear, a trader will find a surprise on Monday morning after risk engine black box puts its hand and glove into your trades A traditional prop firm says clearly what are loss / profit objectives. Darwinex , if their main intention is to protect investor capital need to put few lines explaining what are the risk objectives, and how they measure it. Even darwinex themselves may not know what the risk engine...
I find it difficult to agree with bolded sentence. Objectives for trader are actually clear. Many people seems to get Darwinex model wrong way. Darwinex is not trying to force traders in their model. They are trying to find traders who naturally trade in the way that suits their model. Of course I can be wrong but this is how I see it.
  • #40,535
  • Edited 10:02am Aug 11, 2024 9:34am | Edited 10:02am
I am not pointing out anyone but this thread clearly shows why so few actually make it in trading. Instead of concentrating flaws in own trading people like to find problems in systems they are freely using.

It is of course good that there is discussions and debates about what is wrong, what one doesn’t like etc but generally it is much more productive to concentrate on things one can actually change.

Everyone here are probably better than average trader but also nobody or just maybe few are really good. Really good traders don’t spend time in forums like this. They concentrate only things that really matters.
  • #40,536
  • Aug 11, 2024 9:45am Aug 11, 2024 9:45am
Quoting kalastaja
{quote} many of us using Darwinex are trading anyway. So executing trades in darwinex don’t practically take any more time I am using trading anyway. It just possibly additional source of income.
The payoff is so low that it doesn't even produce minimum wage. The part where I talk about spending an additional half an hour per day on the Darwinex account will get you €40 per hour during the next 5 months. If you spend only 10 minutes per day it's still only €120 per hour spent. At this rate I question if it's even worth the trouble. And don't forget that for this €120 you will have to trade perfectly without any mistakes or you'll be in timeout for at least a month. Then your hourly rate plummets back to minimum wage.

Quoting RoelsMajor
{quote} Some others join Darwinex Zero to build a track record. Indeed, it would be difficult without a primary job. {image}
I have my doubts about any serious operator accepting a metatrader track record even if it's from Darwinex. It's also worth noting that in order to get the minimum allocation you'd have to do this full time at an exemplary level. It's not like a lawyer or doctor or engineer can get to even minimum seed money in their spare time. I've been doing this for three decades as a full time job and I'm fully convinced that it is not possible to maintain this level of perfection without continuously sitting in front of the computer day in day out. So even the best traders won't be able to maintain this level of excellence for years in order to get to serious funding without a lot of attention paid to this venture. IF there is even a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow which I also doubt strongly, see the section on the largest darwins.

I wouldn't mind the meager payout if there would be exponential growth opportunity, but in Darwinex there is less than 0% chance for that. One is much better off opening another brokerage account (for diversification) with €500 and start growing it exponentially. See where it can be after a year and a half...

Quoting Fisher755
{quote} It is just a diversification of accounts (own accounts and different props) . In the end, if money drops from different sources at different dates cannot hurt. There are many traders gone commercial, profitable and none profitable. It is much easier to press one more button on one more terminal.
It's not that simple. If you trade your own account the same way as Darwinex then you don't utilize your own account to its potential (leaving a lot of money on the table unnecessarily) and if you trade the Darwinex account the same way as your own account then you won't get to maintaining seed money for years. So you have to pay special attention to Darwinex. Even if it is only for 10 minutes per day the payout is so small that it's simply not worth the trouble. And if anything goes slightly wrong you are stuck in a subscription which is not a good place. Also, if you do simultaneous Darwinex accounts, you'd have to trade different instruments or at different times otherwise they will be correlated and you won't get paid. So multiple Darwinex accounts requires multiple attention spent. Whereas opening another brokerage account is as simple as clicking another button (copying every trade you'd make on your existing own account).
  • #40,537
  • Aug 11, 2024 9:51am Aug 11, 2024 9:51am
Quoting navk
{quote} I am going to do similar in traditional prop firm. I was doing over trading previously. So, to that extent, Darwinex helped me. In darwinex, I am not sure and not having any idea at all what the risk engine going to do to slash my returns or drawdown. Darwinex wants to protect his investors, but I am bothered about how to fill up my pocket in a better way
By protecting investors Darwinex will fill your pockets faster as well. If investors find Darwinex model reliable and profotable it will attract more investors. I wouldn’t give a dime to trader whos only objective is to fill his own pockets.

Tradiotional prop models suits better for that. Both, prop company and trader are just trying to milk each other.

Trading investors money requires different, patient attitude.
  • #40,538
  • Aug 11, 2024 9:51am Aug 11, 2024 9:51am
Quoting kalastaja
{quote} I find it difficult to agree with bolded sentence. Objectives for trader are actually clear. Many people seems to get Darwinex model wrong way. Darwinex is not trying to force traders in their model. They are trying to find traders who naturally trade in the way that suits their model. Of course I can be wrong but this is how I see it.
I am trading Darwin EXACTLY the way I trade my personal account. I think I am a good fit. 0.13% away from 2nd consecutive allocation with 15 trading days to go, I think 60K allocation is realistic this month.
Obviously, it's not for everyone. IMO, the "traditional" prop model encourages gambling to pass and then bans gambling once you're live......I made money there as well, but that was not normal trading, IMO.....way out of my comfort zone.
I am the "dreamer" that believes I will be in the top 10% of all darwins.......so I will forge ahead.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: DarwinIA0811.PNG Size: 34 KB
  • #40,539
  • Aug 11, 2024 9:58am Aug 11, 2024 9:58am
The zero model is barely a year old. With the "traditional" prop firm all but dead in the US ( and probably most first world countries coming soon)....this could become pretty large pretty quick.........I don't NEED the money tomorrow, but I'm optimistic I can bring this to a bare minimum of an extra 25K per year over time. I won't elaborate on the high end of things as I prefer not to see the negativity that will come with it.
  • #40,540
  • Aug 11, 2024 9:58am Aug 11, 2024 9:58am
[quote=noox;14960168]{quote} The payoff is so low that it doesn't even produce minimum wage. The part where I talk about spending an additional half an hour per day on the Darwinex account will get you €40 per hour during the next 5 months. If you spend only 10 minutes per day it's still only €120 per hour spent. At this rate I question if it's even worth the trouble. And don't forget that for this €120 you will have to trade perfectly without any mistakes or you'll be in timeout for at least a month. Then your hourly rate plummets back to minimum wage.

I apprechiate your comment and therefore it is good that everybody can choose where and how they spen their time. Personally I have time and interest for doing also Darwinex along with my personal account and other props. Maybe I am not utilising my personal account 100% but I am still happy with results and freedom to do what I like.
58 traders viewing now, 1 is registered:
DaXielFX