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  • #38,821
  • Jul 8, 2024 9:16am Jul 8, 2024 9:16am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} if you trade martingale bullshit in your own account is no cheating, because you have to live with the high loss when happens. so all fine, anyone is happy, you until you lose and your b-book broker all the time (maybe ecn brokers dont like it because they lose clients with this over time). when you trade for an investor (copy trading ,prop, managed accounts, funds,,,, whatever) and use this beginner bullshit, then its like cheating because looks like you want rip off the investor because you know what will happen on end with highest chance,...
But these casino props ARE NOT paying for it in the end. If/when you fail, they just keep the fee, just as a b-book broker keeps your failed deposit. If they were ACTUALLY BACKING WITH REAL CAPITAL, i can understand them banning it.
From my perspective, they ban it because it is short term profitable and they do not want to pay out.
They ban/prohibit anything that takes the edge away from them.
Trading real capital is a completely different story.
  • #38,822
  • Jul 8, 2024 9:17am Jul 8, 2024 9:17am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} But these casino props ARE NOT paying for it in the end. If/when you fail, they just keep the fee, just as a b-book broker keeps your failed deposit. If they were ACTUALLY BACKING WITH REAL CAPITAL, i can understand them banning it. From my perspective, they ban it because it is short term profitable and they do not want to pay out. They ban/prohibit anything that takes the edge away from them. Trading real capital is a completely different story.
I am spending way too much energy on this.
  • #38,823
  • Jul 8, 2024 9:24am Jul 8, 2024 9:24am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I am spending way too much energy on this.
me too.

i will stop reading replies
Intraday only.
  • #38,824
  • Jul 8, 2024 9:45am Jul 8, 2024 9:45am
Casinos combat martingale by having an upper bet limit on roulette tables.

In forex, martingale is stupid but so is ICT and SMC so ... should we ban them too
  • #38,825
  • Jul 8, 2024 9:46am Jul 8, 2024 9:46am
Quoting Stoneyrocks
100% PROFIT SHARE NOW WITH CityTradersImperium {image}
Is this capitulation ?
  • #38,826
  • Jul 8, 2024 9:55am Jul 8, 2024 9:55am
Quoting Takisd
Casinos combat martingale by having an upper bet limit on roulette tables. In forex, martingale is stupid but so is ICT and SMC so ... should we ban them too
in forex allow all of what you mention, because this bad traders lose with their deposits. when this bad traders try to cheat by do same with investor money (because they dont have own deposits) its total different game. it is by far the most used way why people lose with investing money and let other trade.
  • #38,827
  • Jul 8, 2024 10:05am Jul 8, 2024 10:05am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} in forex allow all of what you mention, because this bad traders lose with their deposits. when this bad traders try to cheat by do same with investor money (because they dont have own deposits) its total different game. it is by far the most used way why people lose with investing money and let other trade.
Prop firms having payout dates and limits means martingale is more likely to be successful than on a regular account. Policing it makes sense. Its random order flow of no value that only gets risk managed by limits of the prop. A range market = money without effort.
  • #38,828
  • Jul 8, 2024 10:07am Jul 8, 2024 10:07am
Quoting Takisd
In forex, martingale is stupid but so is ICT and SMC so ... should we ban them too

Yes please!!

It would be a really great outcome to remove all the endless Huddleston spam from trading forums.
  • #38,829
  • Jul 8, 2024 11:52am Jul 8, 2024 11:52am
Quoting Takisd
Casinos combat martingale by having an upper bet limit on roulette tables.
The equivalente to that in props would be to limit leverage.
Let's say they limit it to 1:5, which is more than generous in 100K or 200K fake accounts.
This limits heavy martingale and doesn't hurt people that want to enter 1 lot now, 1.5 lot tomorrow and 2 lot after tomorrow, all in loss because they have some reading of the market. Not what I do but this would eliminate the need for a martingale rule. Anyone can trade as they please, without fears, up to 1:5.
  • #38,830
  • Jul 8, 2024 11:59am Jul 8, 2024 11:59am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The equivalente to that in props would be to limit leverage. Let's say they limit it to 1:5, which is more than generous in 100K or 200K fake accounts. This limits heavy martingale and doesn't hurt people that want to enter 1 lot now, 1.5 lot tomorrow and 2 lot after tomorrow, all in loss because they have some reading of the market. Not what I do but this would eliminate the need for a martingale rule. Anyone can trade as they please, without fears, up to 1:5.
Yes but leverage limits the guy wont buy anyway. You have to still get the player to bet
  • #38,831
  • Jul 8, 2024 12:06pm Jul 8, 2024 12:06pm
Quoting Trader191
{quote} if you trade martingale bullshit in your own account is no cheating, because you have to live with the high loss when happens. so all fine, anyone is happy, you until you lose and your b-book broker all the time (maybe ecn brokers dont like it because they lose clients with this over time). when you trade for an investor (copy trading ,prop, managed accounts, funds,,,, whatever) and use this beginner bullshit, then its like cheating because looks like you want rip off the investor because you know what will happen on end with highest chance,...
I am not a forex expert but I use Martingale EA. My question: The term martingale was from 150 years ago. A guy played in casinos with martingale and in the end it ended up himself getting blacklisted - And you make up your mind: Are casinos trying to protect clients?
  • #38,832
  • Jul 8, 2024 12:59pm Jul 8, 2024 12:59pm
Quoting Trader191
{quote} if you trade martingale bullshit in your own account is no cheating, because you have to live with the high loss when happens. so all fine, anyone is happy, you until you lose and your b-book broker all the time (maybe ecn brokers dont like it because they lose clients with this over time). when you trade for an investor (copy trading ,prop, managed accounts, funds,,,, whatever) and use this beginner bullshit, then its like cheating because looks like you want rip off the investor because you know what will happen on end with highest chance,...
Equity SL makes your argumentation invalid. Max DD s also at 1% so risk can easily be increased for bigger profits. Martingale and averaging are not cheating as they are very common fx strategies and profitable if properly managed. Risk management is the key in all fx trading.
  • #38,833
  • Jul 8, 2024 1:15pm Jul 8, 2024 1:15pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Equity SL makes your argumentation invalid. Max DD s also at 1% so risk can easily be increased for bigger profits. Martingale and averaging are not cheating as they are very common fx strategies and profitable if properly managed. Risk management is the key in all fx trading.
I made 0.5% today trading dow, I entered half my size at one point, the other half 30 points lower. All predetermined, all with a max loss of 0.5% if they hit stop loss.
This is DCA, martingale, whatever they wish to call it.
So, yes, you are correct, if you know what you are doing and you have a predetermined loss, what is the difference if that loss is hit in a combination of 5 trades or 1 larger trade?
To the casino example, yes, that is exactly why there are table limits, if you keep doubling your bet and you have enough money to do so........you will eventually gain all your money back + profits.
In trading, since, most do not have unlimited money, you simply assign a max risk to the entire position.
People simply fail at martingale/DCA, whatever because they do not understand rsik management or when to let go of the entire position. They let the account blow up as their stop loss.
I fail to undertsand how this doesn't make sense to some folks....to those folks, what are you saying you have a better chance at success trying to hit your enrty exact? If so, you are a far better trader than I am.
  • #38,834
  • Jul 8, 2024 1:19pm Jul 8, 2024 1:19pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I made 0.5% today trading dow, I entered half my size at one point, the other half 30 points lower. All predetermined, all with a max loss of 0.5% if they hit stop loss. This is DCA, martingale, whatever they wish to call it. So, yes, you are correct, if you know what you are doing and you have a predetermined loss, what is the difference if that loss is hit in a combination of 5 trades or 1 larger trade? To the casino example, yes, that is exactly why there are table limits, if you keep doubling your bet and you have enough money to do...
For trading futures indices in today's new high every day everironment.........who can deny DCA works.
  • #38,835
  • Jul 8, 2024 2:27pm Jul 8, 2024 2:27pm
It is often easier to be more precise if/when you are scalping the market (and/or using smaller time-frames for entries). When you are using higher time-frames for entries, it is often beneficial to have some flexibility. Entering within a 'range', using smaller position sizes, can actually minimize risk in a number of ways.

That being said, DCA is probably a losing strategy for most because it requires a lot of discipline and objectivity (and understanding of the market).

Everyone has their own opinions about things, but I believe that there is some truth to this idea that if props are banning something, then it is likely because it is hurting them, not because it is hurting traders.
  • #38,836
  • Edited 3:45pm Jul 8, 2024 3:33pm | Edited 3:45pm
Quoting deroty
{quote} I am not a forex expert but I use Martingale EA. My question: The term martingale was from 150 years ago. A guy played in casinos with martingale and in the end it ended up himself getting blacklisted - And you make up your mind: Are casinos trying to protect clients?

its a very simple math game!

in casino come people with a lot of money, you will not allow a man bet over a special limit to destroy your edge! again simle math, that a edge can disappear when you have many bet small same time with same edge against them and one bet very big and win by the near 50-50 luck!

really, trading and casino are very basic math, only different rules.


you can use martingale, still you can win by luck (never using something with bad edge or negative edge means you will lose for sure... you will only lose for sure when you trade all trades , but martingale cant because often hang in trades inside by simple luck what was direction of last trade.... again other math calculations.....). but you need luck, most people will lose all, many a lot , ... but that does not mean some will not win big. you only reduce the chance extrem that you are the person! if you want need more about tis you can ask in PM, its really very easy topic and one of the big steps to a good consistent trader (anyone used martingale in their trading life, its one of the steps in trader life (i did it too as beginner and all professional traders i know) if you dont get a smart person show you to overrun this step.... but this is with many topics and things in life).

you could do simple more easy different way... again simple math..... but thats to long and wrong topic for this thread here.

i know math is boring, but makes trading very easy.... or lets say more realistic... you need trading experience and math.. math alone will let you not be a trader to can trade your trading system or find it fast.
  • #38,837
  • Jul 8, 2024 3:54pm Jul 8, 2024 3:54pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} Equity SL makes your argumentation invalid. Max DD s also at 1% so risk can easily be increased for bigger profits. Martingale and averaging are not cheating as they are very common fx strategies and profitable if properly managed. Risk management is the key in all fx trading.
no its not, you cheat yourself in this case! but this topic is wrong to do because will be endless, remember me in 2-4 years please and write me. we speak about the simple math side.

yes, martingale are common strategies for beginners and used a lot... one of the real big reasons so many lose by the way.

i will not convince you that you are wrong (even if i would be correct to do and let you put down the glasses to hide it), because you will think you are more smarter then any professional trader who was there already and say you opposite (any trader is so at the beginning, any.. so its not even wrong that you are like this now, just hard way of learning )... so live like this until you step up from beginner to medium level and see it different... anyone has to do in their own speed their trading steps.

i close this topic for myself, i am ready to help, but not in endless discussion on so easy topics. when some people are not there to understand, than a lot of basic knowledge is missing, that needs to be learned first... (by practice hard way or theory)

and yes, i can understand how hard it is, when someone say you this to a system, you thought its the holy grail for trading to win longterm and outsmart a broker by this.this trial ,fail and repeat you will have often in trading. all the time, still even as professional trader all the time when you add systems... not all work like planed.
  • #38,838
  • Jul 8, 2024 4:02pm Jul 8, 2024 4:02pm
Quoting navk
{quote} me too. i will stop reading replies
Why took you so long? And ban some "intelligents",they know everything, in fact nothing like Takisd.
  • #38,839
  • Jul 8, 2024 4:13pm Jul 8, 2024 4:13pm
Quoting Nsak3y
It is often easier to be more precise if/when you are scalping the market (and/or using smaller time-frames for entries). When you are using higher time-frames for entries, it is often beneficial to have some flexibility. Entering within a 'range', using smaller position sizes, can actually minimize risk in a number of ways. That being said, DCA is probably a losing strategy for most because it requires a lot of discipline and objectivity (and understanding of the market). Everyone has their own opinions about things, but I believe that there is...
Common sense always wins in end. I think actually one should look way closer at the rules the prop firms got and why they exactly have them. Since its clear as they have this DCA/martin gale banning rules and it is profitable but not for the prop firms. If its used properly indeed as you mentioned.
Ive tested various tactics for many years now, many different instruments. DCA doesnt work on all instruments for sure.

But when it does. It really is extremely effective. So how some here whine about how its impossible to left and right makes no sense when many use that method and are indeed profitable.
  • #38,840
  • Jul 8, 2024 5:36pm Jul 8, 2024 5:36pm
Quoting labu
DCA doesnt work on all instruments for sure. But when it does. It really is extremely effective. So how some here whine about how its impossible to left and right makes no sense when many use that method and are indeed profitable.
-As Takisd noted, trading prop vs. trading a personal account matters a lot. Some strategies are bound to be losers over the long-term for most traders, but with prop, it is easier to rinse and repeat, making some of these higher-risk strategies more viable.

It is all relative and subjective. What works for some, may not work for others. I do not assume that others cannot do what I cannot.
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