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  • #37,241
  • Jun 1, 2024 1:49pm Jun 1, 2024 1:49pm
Quoting CableJ
However, I do 100% blame Apex for shelling out damn near 180M million without any semblance of a functional risk compliance department in place.
-It seems that they are taking this very seriously now, based on their recent videos. MFF experienced the same growing pains. Some of these firms are faster to react than others, but what I am seeing from Apex right now is a good thing.
  • #37,242
  • Jun 1, 2024 1:51pm Jun 1, 2024 1:51pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} You may be right but I see this from another angle. Cheaters will be always here and they clearly attacked much more Apex than TopStep. If Apex is shoving them away they won't be quiet because there is too much easy money to be made. The next easy target is Topstep. So my prediction is that very soon we will see TopStep having the same issues and/or making their rules more strict, just like apex. Note: I'm not favoring one or the other and I agree that Apex let this much more than they should. Let's see if they woke up in time to control...
I'm not even trading futures, but how about we all take a breath and wait for someone from this forum that we all know to post non payment from APEX. It seems like so many people here are caught up on other peoples reviews with no proof themselves. If you have NO proof of non payment: meaning its not you or someone you know please STFU about what you have seen on reviews. Its not helpful to anyone Not pointed at you CAPA!
  • #37,243
  • Jun 1, 2024 1:51pm Jun 1, 2024 1:51pm
Quoting CableJ
A lot of cheaters use scalping systems going for <20 ticks with massive SLs/use entire dd as sl which can dramatically increase accuracy >90%. They are losing system that will eventually blow up with 1 loss, however you can get several weeks to months long winning streaks before you blow up which is perfect to take advantage of the prop model.... just rinse and repeat churning through accounts.
-Apex pointed this out in one of their recent videos. They are aware of it and I suspect will start cracking down. They are keeping logs on all traders, it seems. They showed some traders that have 200+ evaluation accounts sitting in reserve. They are monitoring everything.
  • #37,244
  • Jun 1, 2024 2:18pm Jun 1, 2024 2:18pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Apex pointed this out in one of their recent videos. They are aware of it and I suspect will start cracking down. They are keeping logs on all traders, it seems. They showed some traders that have 200+ evaluation accounts sitting in reserve. They are monitoring everything.
My concern is there will be reduced signups and denial which will have ripple effect. Good thing will be there will be pressure to put out more deals to maintain it.
  • #37,245
  • Jun 1, 2024 2:19pm Jun 1, 2024 2:19pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Apex pointed this out in one of their recent videos. They are aware of it and I suspect will start cracking down. They are keeping logs on all traders, it seems. They showed some traders that have 200+ evaluation accounts sitting in reserve. They are monitoring everything.

Yes... each account holders # of evals, # of PAs, # of resets, # of PAs in reserve, # of 1x payouts, # of payouts, total of payouts, total current P&L, R:R.

They will also be tracking blown PAs to see what the R:R ratio was in those accounts too.
  • #37,246
  • Jun 1, 2024 3:11pm Jun 1, 2024 3:11pm
Quoting CableJ
{quote} Yes... each account holders # of evals, # of PAs, # of resets, # of PAs in reserve, # of 1x payouts, # of payouts, total of payouts, total current P&L, R:R. They will also be tracking blown PAs to see what the R:R ratio was in those accounts too.
My Personal opinion be, Apex should just be caring about dca and r:r so that people won't be yolo'ing on PA (that means longer PA life). Even if they have 200 in reserve they still be paying monthly fees so it doesn't matter.
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #37,247
  • Edited 3:54pm Jun 1, 2024 3:27pm | Edited 3:54pm
Quoting sampat
My concern is there will be reduced signups and denial which will have ripple effect. Good thing will be there will be pressure to put out more deals to maintain it.
Quoting CableJ
Yes... each account holders # of evals, # of PAs, # of resets, # of PAs in reserve, # of 1x payouts, # of payouts, total of payouts, total current P&L, R:R. They will also be tracking blown PAs to see what the R:R ratio was in those accounts too.
-Yes. My hope is that they will focus their efforts to deter cheaters that pose a meaningful risk to the firm. However, I suspect that some collateral damage may occur, resulting in some honest traders getting burned.

Just as an example, in one of the videos, he shows an equity curve, although clearly not a very disciplined trader, but also probably not cheating or trying to game the system. He didn't seem to see it that way. This concerns me. Same with the scalpers that have massive stop-losses. I think, not all of them are trying to game the system; some are just bad traders.

It all circles back to whether or not they will be shooting themselves in the foot over the long-term. Time will tell just how strict and overzealous they may become with rule enforcement. The sad thing is, just as pointed out in the video, these negative measures often hurt everyone, all because of a few, bad apples. They are hoping to implement measures that only impact offenders, in lieu of using blanket enforcement. I think, if they can manage to do that, then that would be the best approach.
  • #37,248
  • Jun 1, 2024 3:33pm Jun 1, 2024 3:33pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} You may be right but I see this from another angle. Cheaters will be always here and they clearly attacked much more Apex than TopStep. If Apex is shoving them away they won't be quiet because there is too much easy money to be made. The next easy target is Topstep. So my prediction is that very soon we will see TopStep having the same issues and/or making their rules more strict, just like apex. Note: I'm not favoring one or the other and I agree that Apex let this much more than they should. Let's see if they woke up in time to control...
What type of cheaters are you talking about ? I don't think there is room for cheaters on futures (considering the basic rules) Apex is immune with its non-static threshold and its 30% rule. Topstep is immune with its 50% rule in challenge and its rule of 5 winning days in funded (= min 5 x 200). Not to mention the scaling plan. The only sensitive point for me is that Topstep allows the news in funded mode. In summary, Apex doesn't need to, in theory, bother with additional and subjective rules like they have been doing. This action, in my opinion, was created to reduce the mass distributed in payout following promotions that were too advantageous
  • #37,249
  • Jun 1, 2024 3:38pm Jun 1, 2024 3:38pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Apex pointed this out in one of their recent videos. They are aware of it and I suspect will start cracking down. They are keeping logs on all traders, it seems. They showed some traders that have 200+ evaluation accounts sitting in reserve. They are monitoring everything.
When their system allowed it, they can not complain about it. If they are allowing smth, this is because they want it that way. A junior programmer can set a limit in the database within a minutes.
  • #37,250
  • Jun 1, 2024 3:52pm Jun 1, 2024 3:52pm
Quoting fx_rookie
When their system allowed it, they can not complain about it. If they are allowing smth, this is because they want it that way. A junior programmer can set a limit in the database within a minutes.
-I agree with you. But I think that is was mostly viewed as just another data point (i.e. not something that they care so much about, but something that could warrant a deeper look). For example, if someone has 100+ reserve accounts, and have blown 3000+ PA accounts in the last couple of months, never makes it to second payout, never leaves a cushion and/or often blows the remaining funds with a coin toss after approval etc.. might give them cause to investigate if they can see a pattern of abuse and gambling etc..

That being said, I personally do not think that they should waste their efforts and resources on targeting gamblers. Because let's face it, there are many bad traders that trade like gamblers and the money generated from honest traders supports the business. If they really want to find good traders to push to live, then they need to change their business model. Just my opinion.

I do think that cracking down on cheaters (especially those that use copy services) is a good thing, however. This is why they are cracking down on DCA, since evidently, most of these copy services are using DCA bots. There are also people that are registering multiple accounts, which is a blatant violation. Credit card scammers and traders from prohibited countries are also something that they're fighting against, among other things.
  • #37,251
  • Jun 1, 2024 3:53pm Jun 1, 2024 3:53pm
Quoting Nehemah
What type of cheaters are you talking about ?
-The link that pipmaster77 shared has several videos that explain it.
  • #37,252
  • Jun 1, 2024 3:58pm Jun 1, 2024 3:58pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote} {quote} - Same with the scalpers that have massive stop-losses. I think, not all of them are trying to game the system; some are just bad traders. .
Could you explain to me how a “bad trader” (I quote you) can make money with massive stop losses ? In general, the only ones who have this type of arguments are the prop firms who seek to invent rules to refuse payments
  • #37,253
  • Jun 1, 2024 4:09pm Jun 1, 2024 4:09pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-The link that pipmaster77 shared has several videos that explain it.
I'm totally ok for example they add something like the 30% rules to avoid the " gamblers ". But be careful : what they call a cheater (or a gambler) is not one. The trader so named did nothing other than apply the rules that were proposed. It always makes me laugh to see all these prop firms offering enormous leverage and when a trader allows himself to use half of his margin, he is called a gambler or a cheater.
The prop firms thought badly at the start and that is why all CFDs go bankrupt. Topstep is the only firm that correctly addresses the problem to avoid these kinds of issues. So they don't need subjective criteria to refuse payouts.
  • #37,254
  • Jun 1, 2024 4:18pm Jun 1, 2024 4:18pm
Darwinex Zero update:

I got my 30K seed capital allocation at 9:37am today (well played Dzero for a Saturday). This capital is notional and I will earn a whopping 15% performance fee on any profits I make. At silver level you are guaranteed this capital for 3 months. (6 months for Gold)
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Important to note, and I didn't realize this, your rating automatically drops down at the beginning of the month. At the end of May my rating was 76.2 and now it starts the month of June at 66.23. Of course you need to get back to a min rating of 75 to acquire more seed capital. Using the rating calculator I would need to increase the account by only 1.93% to get the rating back to 75. No problem right? Well not exactly because my risk reduction is still at 0.19 and will remain there for likely the rest of the month (45 days to recalibrate back to normal). So, in reality I would need to earn around 10% for the month (1.9% with risk the reduction factor) to get the rating back to 75. Not that easy when you can only trade 2-3 lots. But then again that's only $500/day for 20 days. Which brings me to "the dilemma". Since there is no penalty for overleveraging, what incentive do I have to trade within the correct risk profile for another month just to have the engine reset? I'm just treading water in the meantime and paying another month's fee (not a big deal really). Obviously, I want to build a long term relationship and to develop a reputation with impeccable risk management to attract more seed capital and ultimately investor capital. In the short term it's weird but not a big deal so I'm going to keep trading the recommended leverage to get that engine reset then 2 lots will really be 2 lots and not 0.38 lots. Also, there's no hurry to get back to a 75 rating. Increasing the account by 1% for the month translates to $44 for me which pays the $38 fee anyways. In addition I am free to pimp and post the affiliate link on my Twitter and pathetic Youtube channel to earn free months fees for any signups. That's all for now.
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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #37,255
  • Edited 4:39pm Jun 1, 2024 4:26pm | Edited 4:39pm
Quoting Fisher755
{image} {image} {image} Followed the path of our yolo king (without the yolo part of course) and started D Zero end of April and got to the first 30K in 5 weeks. Must say it is Expos fault and I am greatful for his tips. With all the cirkus going on in the prop space it is safe long term option and at least the real "win when we win" LOL. It is a good side project if nothing else, but my personal opinion is that it can develope into a main project in a year or a bit less. Depending what the market gives of course. So far I must say I am impressed...
Well played!

I like the risk engine concept. I just don't like that it can reduce your risk in real time day to day but then takes 45 days to "recalibrate" back to normal. I guess that's the punishment for Yoloing to get to that 75 rating

I agree, the long term model looks sustainable to me. And the best part is you might not get seed/investor capital while paying the monthly fees but you NEVER lose your account so your always still in the game. Of course the cheap reset option is always there as well.

Good luck and keep us posted!

PS. My quote is stuck at 105 for now but next month when the risk engine recalibrates I'm going to chase you down like a Cheetah! A little friendly competition for inspiration. It's on baby, it's on
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #37,256
  • Jun 1, 2024 4:36pm Jun 1, 2024 4:36pm
I just submitted my first APEX payout request.

Finished the 10 day period at $54,535 so I requested the 2K max and will have plenty of drawdown to work with going forward. Now I just have to hope the rules enforcer guy is on vacation. I got a bad feeling I might get denied. So what happens if they deny my payout? I think I read about it somewhere but that seems like too much work to research the answer. Maybe someone could spoon feed me the answer.
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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #37,257
  • Edited 5:51pm Jun 1, 2024 5:23pm | Edited 5:51pm
Even Matt is saying to quite moaning and start improving.
https://x.com/TradesByMatt/status/1797009290433007690
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #37,258
  • Jun 1, 2024 6:18pm Jun 1, 2024 6:18pm
Quoting Nehemah
Could you explain to me how a “bad trader” (I quote you) can make money with massive stop losses ? In general, the only ones who have this type of arguments are the prop firms who seek to invent rules to refuse payments
-If you watch the videos, it is explained far better than I could do here. To summarize, people are using their entire account balance as their stop-loss. Some are seeing 90% accuracy since the market usually bounces back enough to grab a few ticks of profit... that is, until it doesn't work and the account is blown.

Since their buy-in is only about $100 for $2,500 of draw-down allowance, some people are being reckless with their accounts. Personally, I do not think that bad traders should be targeted. However, according to Apex, there are groups that are teaching this, some with hundreds of followers.
  • #37,259
  • Jun 1, 2024 6:30pm Jun 1, 2024 6:30pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-If you watch the videos, it is explained far better than I could do here. To summarize, people are using their entire account balance as their stop-loss. Some are seeing 90% accuracy since the market usually bounces back enough to grab a few ticks of profit... that is, until it doesn't work and the account is blown. Since their buy-in is only about $100 for $2,500 of draw-down allowance, some people are being reckless with their accounts. Personally, I do not think that bad traders should be targeted. However, according to Apex, there are...
Thank you. But : If a bad trader can make money in a given model, it means that the rules of the model in question are poorly thought out. If the rules are poorly thought out, then a bad trader can actually make money. The problem is with the prop firm, not the trader.
The topstep rules, very simple and precise, do not allow this type of traders to make money in the long term. So once again, the problem comes from Apex, not the traders (good or bad, gamblers or not)

And I would like to add one thing: doing hundreds of $10 promos like Apex did is an incentive for gambling. No more no less. So don't let them come crying now.
  • #37,260
  • Jun 1, 2024 6:40pm Jun 1, 2024 6:40pm
Quoting Nehemah
Thank you. But : If a bad trader can make money in a given model, it means that the rules of the model in question are poorly thought out. If the rules are poorly thought out, then a bad trader can actually make money. The problem is with the prop firm, not the trader.
-The rules have always been in place. Only recently have they been heavily-enforced. This is the result of many people trying to game the system because they cannot trade properly themselves. Would you trade a personal account this way? If you did, you would eventually lose all of your money. Just because lots of leverage is afforded doesn't mean that we should use all of it. As traders, we must manage our own risk.

Quoting Nehemah
And I would like to add one thing: doing hundreds of $10 promos like Apex did is an incentive for gambling. No more no less. So don't let them come crying now.
-Not everyone is a gambler. Having discounted prices only helps traders. People always have a choice about how they treat their accounts. I look at these discounts as a gift that helps to keep my costs low. Just because the costs are low doesn't mean I am buying up 100's of accounts at a time and trading like a gambler.
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