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  • #36,081
  • May 7, 2024 8:08am May 7, 2024 8:08am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I agree with the rinse of trash. I was discouraging using 95% of these firms long before it became a problem. Can you elaborate on the futures model not resolving, but prolonging the problem.
The issue with warehousing all the trades is that eventually there is equillibrium, which means there is a winner for every loser. The futures props have survived as they have been small, as they get bigger the balance starts to come in. With the retail props the 10 million per month revenue level seems to be that point.

So when you have the equilibrium and then your payout book matches that, if the marketplace shrinks for whatever reason, you all go bust at once. This is what has happened in the retail space. The rules of the futures space will only make it take longer but the math is still the same.

And before the circus of clowns arrive. If they are using "REAL FUNDS" the impact is even worse.
  • #36,082
  • May 7, 2024 8:21am May 7, 2024 8:21am
Quoting KarlKraus
{quote} You were. So was I. (The difference was that I was for ever wrongly accused of being a shill for 5 or 6 different things - and even sometimes of having multiple memberships here! - because of that.)
that was only pure math to see the problem with prop, so not difficult to do.

your problem was more that you and one of your friends did say always future is always better then cfd in trading, what of course was coming from your lower retail trading knowledge and more knowledge in funds (where the game is different because of regulations, at least i hope thats the source of your problem with understanding this topic in retail trading). but you never did educate yourself that there are for any trading strategy and any different timeframes a best trading object, sometimes its futures, sometimes its cfd, sometimes options, sometimes swaps....
and you did repeat this mistake so often, was crazy to educate you again and again.
  • #36,083
  • May 7, 2024 8:35am May 7, 2024 8:35am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} The issue with warehousing all the trades is that eventually there is equillibrium, which means there is a winner for every loser. The futures props have survived as they have been small, as they get bigger the balance starts to come in. With the retail props the 10 million per month revenue level seems to be that point. So when you have the equilibrium and then your payout book matches that, if the marketplace shrinks for whatever reason, you all go bust at once. This is what has happened in the retail space. The rules of the futures space...
I don't understand why balancing the books would turn them profitable.

Let's say we have 33% of passing a challenge and a 100K costs 500.

They receive 1515 from me and 1515 from you and we both get funded accounts.

Now I have a bullish view in EURUSD and you have a bearing one. Let's say, to be balanced, that we trade same size during several days, always opposite (balanced book for them).

I burn my account -10K but in fact I only lost 1515
You win 10K. Even if they kill the refunds, they still have to pay you 8000 (80% split) but only received 1515x2 in fees.

I understand why balanced is good in real brokers. They would receive 10K from me and 10K from you, one of us would bust and they pay the other, minus commissions and slippage.
But on props I don't see how a balance book can make them any profitable.
  • #36,084
  • May 7, 2024 8:41am May 7, 2024 8:41am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I don't understand why balancing the books would turn them profitable. Let's say we have 33% of passing a challenge and a 100K costs 500. They receive 1515 from me and 1515 from you and we both get funded accounts. Now I have a bullish view in EURUSD and you have a bearing one. Let's say, to be balanced, that we trade same size during several days, always opposite (balanced book for them). I burn my account -10K but in fact I only lost 1515 You win 10K. Even if they kill the refunds, they still have to pay you 8000 (80% split) but only received...
I am not sure if you missed something or not. I am saying that due to the balance they will all die, its the math. If you are "only real funds" you die because profit split kills any alpha (your loss is always bigger than your gain) and b-book at a certain size also will die because you always have winners.

One option is to do what fundingpips is doing and manipulate the living shit out of the platform so that both sides lose. TFT did that though and still failed. The real issue is having flat sales or better, if you have negative sales for any prolonged period of time without a clean out of funded accounts you will fail without any type of monetization outside of fees. Of which, to the best of my knowledge, no one has active at a prop.
  • #36,085
  • May 7, 2024 8:47am May 7, 2024 8:47am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I was going to post that exactly that now. In too many words than necessary, he is basically saying that TFF is bankrupt and they have 300 pending payouts. No wonder that we heard that case of 18K pending payout last week, here, where the trader has been asked to wait for almost a month and is still waiting.
What are these statements meant to achieve. On the one hand its good to be honest with the traders, It also will likely prevent further payouts building up as its pointless to trade the funded account now. But who on earth is going to now pay the challenge fees they need knowing what we now know.

How many other firms in exactly this situation but not disclosing it i wonder.

I've absolutely dodged 2 bullets in the last week, i think I should quit while I'm ahead.
  • #36,086
  • May 7, 2024 10:11am May 7, 2024 10:11am
I think for forex prop firms except ftmo 400k max dont buy beyond 100k challenges. 200k absolute NO not worth it at all. They wont pay big anymore 99% of them. The days of gloating BIG payouts certificates are long gone. Instead buy 2x100k different firms.
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #36,087
  • May 7, 2024 10:54am May 7, 2024 10:54am
Jeezus, forex prop firms man. Awful what a mess it is. If you're American, and you're sitting on U.S. soil, and you're interested in trading with a prop firm, you're crazy if that prop firm isn't Apex.

who the fuc4 knows later.... but for now anyway.
A snails pace wins the race :-)
  • #36,088
  • May 7, 2024 10:59am May 7, 2024 10:59am
Quoting montygoldy
I think for forex prop firms except ftmo 400k max dont buy beyond 100k challenges. 200k absolute NO not worth it at all. They wont pay big anymore 99% of them. The days of gloating BIG payouts certificates are long gone. Instead buy 2x100k different firms.
The days of surviving on challenge fees is not enough for firms. More people have become profitable. I can also give credit to prop firms for forcing me to take a fixed reward n ratio and exteme risk management helped me alot where i was last year and now. Same goes for everyone. Even there is a running cost as well + promotions etc. So better need to find ways to make profits without challenge fees
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #36,089
  • May 7, 2024 11:08am May 7, 2024 11:08am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} The issue with warehousing all the trades is that eventually there is equillibrium, which means there is a winner for every loser. The futures props have survived as they have been small, as they get bigger the balance starts to come in. With the retail props the 10 million per month revenue level seems to be that point. So when you have the equilibrium and then your payout book matches that, if the marketplace shrinks for whatever reason, you all go bust at once. This is what has happened in the retail space. The rules of the futures space...
That didn't seem to affect MFF @ >20M per month. The case revealed that their margins were insane and they only sent 1% of their book to market.
  • #36,090
  • May 7, 2024 11:13am May 7, 2024 11:13am
Just a random post one of the streamers lost alot of apex funded accounts in 2min. I dont like to see others losing but its good for me to show to my brain NEVER DO THIS on my accounts. Apex not cheap 4k in total evals + activation fee.
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Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #36,091
  • May 7, 2024 11:17am May 7, 2024 11:17am
Quoting montygoldy
I think for forex prop firms except ftmo 400k max dont buy beyond 100k challenges. 200k absolute NO not worth it at all. They wont pay big anymore 99% of them. The days of gloating BIG payouts certificates are long gone. Instead buy 2x100k different firms.
Makes you wonder how AndrewNFX is still claiming 100K a month from fx prop trading... when he's banned from the only firm that will pay high 5 figures on >300K in funding lol.
  • #36,092
  • May 7, 2024 11:21am May 7, 2024 11:21am
Quoting montygoldy
Just a random post one of the streamers lost alot of apex funded accounts in 2min. I dont like to see others losing but its good for me to show to my brain NEVER DO THIS on my accounts. Apex not cheap 4k in total evals + activation fee. {image}
he has no system..... his edge is the futures prop model. Going all in on report releases, earnings & NY open will eventually lead to disaster as it did for him today.... but to his credit he's way in the green since he started, but he's also an affiliate that Apex is well aware of... he's good for business.
  • #36,093
  • May 7, 2024 11:25am May 7, 2024 11:25am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} Makes you wonder how AndrewNFX is still claiming 100K a month from fx prop trading... when he's banned from the only firm that will pay high 5 figures on >300K in funding lol.
if you are a influencer you can chantage prop firms but the other people cant do shit and get payouts denied
  • #36,094
  • May 7, 2024 11:28am May 7, 2024 11:28am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Expo, reading your detailed posts, which have been excellent for whoever wants to dive into Darwin, I have a main doubt, even before wasting time in the technicalities of the program. Do you think Darwin is worthwhile for whoever doesn't want to create an auditable record, which is my case ? I mean, Darwin seems to take a bit of time and, in my case, I usually only make 1 or 2 trades a day. It seems I would take a long time until being trading a reasonable capital. All my other alternatives, either forex or futures, with easier/faster money...
Yes it is certainly a long term endeavor.

Personally I'm tired of the uncertainty associated with prop firms. I feel much more comfortable with the Darwinex model.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #36,095
  • May 7, 2024 11:33am May 7, 2024 11:33am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} Makes you wonder how AndrewNFX is still claiming 100K a month from fx prop trading... when he's banned from the only firm that will pay high 5 figures on >300K in funding lol.
I never cared who 's making what. Whatever we all can say about it fake, unrealistic etc. Its money in bank either its there or not. So i only focused on others trading related activities not the money.
Coz i take my own exmaple for moeny. I yolo alot and before prop firms i used to yolo 1k-2k to make big or margin call. i have blowned 100+ or maybe 200+ or maybe more accounts lost count. In the end i am NET PROFITABLE meaning last time I pulled 1k out of my pocket is in 2020. After that its all reinvesting.
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #36,096
  • May 7, 2024 11:33am May 7, 2024 11:33am
Quoting Novazor
{quote} if you are a influencer you can chantage prop firms but the other people cant do shit and get payouts denied
Andrew used his platforms as a stick to get payouts that would have normally been denied... pay me or else this could get very ugly for you.. now you wouldn't want that, would you?
  • #36,097
  • May 7, 2024 11:35am May 7, 2024 11:35am
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Well I sort of agree but not really. I can earn 5% in a month trading 2 lots which falls within the 3.25-6.5% VaR. Twenty trading days making $250 a day isn't unreasonable. The problem I have is the risk engine not recalibrating right away. I thought it was only activated when you are trading below or above the VaR range in real time. So right now I have a profitable trade open which is well within the target VaR range but I'm getting penalized on my potential profit because the risk reduction is still at 81%. So basically what incentive...
I got the answers to my two questions.
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At this point for me it's best to just trade tiny until the end of the month to get that 30K just to make sure we get the ball rolling. Afterall, it's all about track record. If I was still below the 75 rating I'd continue overleveraging as there seems to be no personal penalty for doing that.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #36,098
  • May 7, 2024 11:37am May 7, 2024 11:37am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} That didn't seem to affect MFF @ >20M per month. The case revealed that their margins were insane and they only sent 1% of their book to market.
I think you will find if you had the data posted January 2023 their a-book was significantly more and their VIP accounts were mostly A-booked. They were fine via risk mitigation and some fairly good know how. They were also at 35m/month when they were shut down.

From the public record there are some spreadsheets and conversations they were part taking in to monetize as well. So in terms of them vs others - built different. But hey, an out of context catch phrase and the fact murtuza had a bugatti is all that matters.
  • #36,099
  • May 7, 2024 11:45am May 7, 2024 11:45am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I think you will find if you had the data posted January 2023 their a-book was significantly more and their VIP accounts were mostly A-booked. They were fine via risk mitigation and some fairly good know how. They were also at 35m/month when they were shut down. From the public record there are some spreadsheets and conversations they were part taking in to monetize as well. So in terms of them vs others - built different. But hey, an out of context catch phrase and the fact murtuza had a bugatti is all that matters.
Imagine having a sucessfull business and buying a bugatti lol imagine that
  • #36,100
  • May 7, 2024 11:46am May 7, 2024 11:46am
Quoting JustPipMe
Jeezus, forex prop firms man. Awful what a mess it is. If you're American, and you're sitting on U.S. soil, and you're interested in trading with a prop firm, you're crazy if that prop firm isn't Apex. who the fuc4 knows later.... but for now anyway.
Understatement of the year.
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