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  • #35,921
  • May 4, 2024 3:36pm May 4, 2024 3:36pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-From a trader's perspective, perhaps it would be prudent to choose a prop that we know is employing proper measures to safe-guard against such cheaters. But how to do that without them disclosing their methods and allowing cheaters to gain an upper-hand? I have no idea what these cheaters are doing. It seems that Takisd has some ideas, so maybe he can find a way to beat them and help to give these firms a fighting chance without needing to hurt honest traders.
a lot try latency arbitrage in all the different possible ways (and that is a big amount of possible ways).
other try use volume advantage (like get big volume to price of small trading amount).
or you open accounts with different people names or at different prop and do then same trade opposite (if one big trade win is not forbidden).
and and and.

in general you try to use that the broker is no real broker and so has no real market trading conditions or that you did not have deposit any money and so you are with no loss by losing (of course losing of time and losing of good trading behavior is a extrem loss over time, but this small traders often do not calculate - so i only speak about money in this case).
  • #35,922
  • May 4, 2024 3:42pm May 4, 2024 3:42pm
Quoting Frenky
Hello all. This is my first post here, but I am following forexfactory for the last 15 years. I need help to share my story. I have 200k account at TFF (true forex funds), and I have generated 18000$ of profits. I am waiting since 8th of April (27 days now) for my payment. They are saying things like: soon, allow more time, you will get it as soon as possible etc. All just lies. Also many others are in the same situation. I am really in a bad situation right now, because my rent is due and i have other financial obligations which I cannot solve...
Your biggest "mistake" was to make well above 10K in TFF. They are known for creating a lot of troubles and sometimes not paying >10K, finding excuses in IPs, trading history, rules, fabricating evidence, changing the past, etc.
Knowing that these days props are facing a financial stress situation I would say that even 10K is beyond a careful approach, unless you're an influencer with a lot of followers.

All this said there's not much you can do unless:
1. Keep wait and pray that they will pay
2. Contract a lawyer and sue them in Hungary although I'm not even sure if our contracts are with Hungary or with some other country (TFF has several countries and companies mentioned here)
3. Try to contact several people in twitter and hope that that they are able to bring the case public. Nevertheless TFF was not very persuasive in the past, even when clearly caught wrong doing.
  • #35,923
  • May 4, 2024 4:01pm May 4, 2024 4:01pm
Top Step is going to announce something on Monday
https://twitter.com/Topstep/status/1786488364658557072
  • #35,924
  • May 4, 2024 4:28pm May 4, 2024 4:28pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Is this a telegram group or such ? What's in it for them to disclose the method ? Do you belong to some sort of pool ?!
Its twitter.
I posted that it took me 5 seconds to figure out how to game the new programs of e8 and mffx.

All of a sudden multiple people start to send me their ways of cheating.
  • #35,925
  • May 4, 2024 5:27pm May 4, 2024 5:27pm
Quoting Trader191
a lot try latency arbitrage in all the different possible ways (and that is a big amount of possible ways). other try use volume advantage (like get big volume to price of small trading amount). or you open accounts with different people names or at different prop and do then same trade opposite (if one big trade win is not forbidden).
-I'm not sure what can be done about traders that exploit latency issues, other than ensuring that your feed has no delays. Assuming that I am understanding your meaning about that.

I suppose that one way to mitigate hedgers and the like would be to heavily-limit capital allocation at the start, and only allow additional capital to be accessible at certain milestones. Probably, the 5%er's understand this to a point, but perhaps additional tightening is required. One-step challenges essentially lay out a welcoming mat for a lot of cheaters, probably. Perhaps two-step challenges may only work effectively if some kind of consistency rule is applied.

Certainly, these props have a lot to deal with in terms of opportunistic bad players. It seems that most are choosing the wood-chipper approach instead of being surgical about it.
  • #35,926
  • May 4, 2024 5:31pm May 4, 2024 5:31pm
there is very little latency arbitrage going on in prop firms unless they are HFT firms. Execution delay and even minor slippage resolves that. The news rules kill any outliers.
  • #35,927
  • May 4, 2024 5:40pm May 4, 2024 5:40pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I'm not sure what can be done about traders that exploit latency issues, other than ensuring that your feed has no delays. Assuming that I am understanding your meaning about that. I suppose that one way to mitigate hedgers and the like would be to heavily-limit capital allocation at the start, and only allow additional capital to be accessible at certain milestones. Probably, the 5%er's understand this to a point, but perhaps additional tightening is required. One-step challenges essentially lay out a welcoming mat for a lot of cheaters,...
like in most other brokerage company, you dont pay them out any money won by latency arbitrage! thats how you do it and needs to be done. its no trading, its more cheating in this kind, because you know already the result.
you need to have a direct agreement with different LP to want earn by different prices.

if you use latency arbitrage with a broker and this broker allow this, this broker (a and b book) is bankrupt in 1 day. its just like stealing from broker and make broker lose - you cant protect by any chance. only STP broker (and so on) can protect by get first from the LP the trade and give later to your client, but this will then get no trade, because price will not be at this value. so dealers can never allow this, brokers / agents can (its a little bit misguiding that most brokers are dealers in reality).
  • #35,928
  • May 4, 2024 5:50pm May 4, 2024 5:50pm
Quoting Takisd
there is very little latency arbitrage going on in prop firms unless they are HFT firms. Execution delay and even minor slippage resolves that. The news rules kill any outliers.
this i know for sure was different (at least until last year and what i heard from companies on fair and from inside companies, some even had to pay because was only people who won or they would not have to show good winners).
  • #35,929
  • Edited 6:39pm May 4, 2024 6:04pm | Edited 6:39pm
Quoting Capablanca
Top Step is going to announce something on Monday https://twitter.com/Topstep/status/1786488364658557072
Everyone has there special new announcements.

They're like strippers. If you stay long enough I might even show you a nipple. A lot of desperation as the industry crumbles
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #35,930
  • May 4, 2024 6:45pm May 4, 2024 6:45pm
Quoting Frenky
{quote} Yeah, I know. But they paid me multiple times before, all under 24h. And the reason is I had some bigger expenses and didn't wait for payout, but trusted them they will pay like always. Now I see how wrong I was. They are only paying <1k profits. Everything else is delayed indefinitely. Thanks btw
Your payout is high risk to their bottom line.... Even in the good times pre MFF takedown, TFF has always been suspect with >4 figures.
  • #35,931
  • May 4, 2024 9:26pm May 4, 2024 9:26pm
Quoting Capablanca
Top Step is going to announce something on Monday https://twitter.com/Topstep/status/1786488364658557072
There is a rumour going on for a while increasing from 3 to 10 XFA accounts. If they do so i'll purchase right away. Loving everything about them so far. I think every monday if you follow their topsteptv easily can score multiple free RESETS. I already did twice.

I was one button click close away today purchasing 3x150k takeprofittrader while watching a review on youtube where it opened my eyes they have CANADA in banned countries for Funded accounts for tradovate. Which is a surprise this is the first ever company banning Canada.

THen i moved to elitetraderfunding 60$ - 150k account offer then another video showed their payout policy which is completely garbage. You cannot pull more then 2k per account for first 3 payments. Each payment requires 14 days. PURE BS thats why no hype for them at all.

I think i am sticking to apex, myfundedfutures and toptep for now. Maybe try Bulenox in future they seem reasonable.
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #35,932
  • May 4, 2024 9:44pm May 4, 2024 9:44pm
Quoting Trader191
{quote} like in most other brokerage company, you dont pay them out any money won by latency arbitrage! thats how you do it and needs to be done. its no trading, its more cheating in this kind, because you know already the result. you need to have a direct agreement with different LP to want earn by different prices. if you use latency arbitrage with a broker and this broker allow this, this broker (a and b book) is bankrupt in 1 day. its just like stealing from broker and make broker lose - you cant protect by any chance. only STP broker (and so...
How could 2 brokers involved in latency arbitrage by a trader lose money?
The brokers' quotes are their official prices that they present to everyone and they are happy when trades get executed at those prices.
A trader using HFT, is using the quote the broker gives them and the trader executes their trades at those gives prices.
If there is a difference between the quotes of 2 brokers, it is not a trader's fault. It is on the broker to speed up their execution to stay as close as possible to the real price. I'm thinking broker A and B don't know a trader is using HFT other than the frequency of trades. They should think they have got a hyper trader on their hand who is pumping them commission at high frequency. More money in their pockets.
Where am wrong in this picture?
  • #35,933
  • May 4, 2024 11:52pm May 4, 2024 11:52pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} How could 2 brokers involved in latency arbitrage by a trader lose money? The brokers' quotes are their official prices that they present to everyone and they are happy when trades get executed at those prices. A trader using HFT, is using the quote the broker gives them and the trader executes their trades at those gives prices. If there is a difference between the quotes of 2 brokers, it is not a trader's fault. It is on the broker to speed up their execution to stay as close as possible to the real price. I'm thinking broker A and B don't...
i also cannot figure out an HFT on a 1,5/2 or more pips spread bid/ask.
maybe it’s possible but as for what I know. HFT is something out of retail brokers. Must be at least one step higher.
more likely brokers are buying from you rather tha pn you trading with them
90% of traders use TA, indicators and prediction
  • #35,934
  • Edited May 5, 2024 12:20am May 4, 2024 11:59pm | Edited May 5, 2024 12:20am
Quoting _BBKing_
{quote} i also cannot figure out an HFT on a 1,5/2 or more pips spread bid/ask. maybe it’s possible but as for what I know. HFT is something out of retail brokers. Must be at least one step higher. more likely brokers are buying from you rather tha pn you trading with them
So, you are saying that HFT in real account wouldn't make sense because the difference in price you make would always be less than cost of doing that trade.
But why would any broker disallow it?
A trader runs his HFT ea and learns that it doesn't produce a profit and stops doing it naturally. It'd be like trying a million other ways that don't necessarily work. Why would the broker care?

I think with arbitrage, we tend to think net of 1 trade from a broker vs 1 trade from another broker minus cost. But if you throw in some averaging formula, over the course of hundreds of trades, a profit can be exacted out. I think brokers know it can work if the operator is sophisticated enough.
  • #35,935
  • May 5, 2024 1:53am May 5, 2024 1:53am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} So, you are saying that HFT in real account wouldn't make sense because the difference in price you make would always be less than cost of doing that trade. But why would any broker disallow it? A trader runs his HFT ea and learns that it doesn't produce a profit and stops doing it naturally. It'd be like trying a million other ways that don't necessarily work. Why would the broker care? I think with arbitrage, we tend to think net of 1 trade from a broker vs 1 trade from another broker minus cost. But if you throw in some averaging formula,...
you are probably right indeed.
there must be a reason why they don’t allow.
maybe due to number of trades executed x minute? Or maybe because they know it’s something profitable?
I really don’t know…
90% of traders use TA, indicators and prediction
  • #35,936
  • Edited 7:13am May 5, 2024 7:01am | Edited 7:13am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} How could 2 brokers involved in latency arbitrage by a trader lose money? The brokers' quotes are their official prices that they present to everyone and they are happy when trades get executed at those prices. A trader using HFT, is using the quote the broker gives them and the trader executes their trades at those gives prices. If there is a difference between the quotes of 2 brokers, it is not a trader's fault. It is on the broker to speed up their execution to stay as close as possible to the real price. I'm thinking broker A and B don't...
there will be a big or small lack between real market prices between the prices between the banks (so real currency prices at moment in interbank trading network) and the copied versions you see in your broker depends on money you invest for infrastructure, who are your LP, you are connected to prime or prime of prime ,........you get always a delay.

you see very easy when someone play this delay if the broker know how to do (whatever of the 5 possible ways you try to do it) and in any brokers agreement you see its forbidden to do, because any broker (you need to know that most are only dealers not brokers, that's a wrong word more or less - and as dealer you lose extrem by latency to be behind real interbank prices and cant hedge yourself) gets bankrupt by this . so you agree not to use or cant trade this, so simple. brokers give you the chance to trade cheaper then in banks, so you need to use their rules, and their rules are designed so you cant make them bankrupt (like any company will do). you have to learn to see world from all 3 sides as a trader, who earn how and will lose how and try to make most happy (LP, broker, trader). in your case maybe only prop and gamer, there is of course impossible to make other side happy, because when one win other side is always losing.
of course its only problem with CFD, with futures you have the exchange market place , but even here you have connection latency (and for daytrading currencies and some other ways, there are even no advantages in trading futures against cfd ). but this problem is only when you choose dealers or prop or some other constructions.

its a complex topic. but why many chose latency arbitrage? because they want be cheaters and not traders (dont want learn trading and win big long term, they want it fast ... but often they also do because are beginners and it looks so promising , like a broker did overlook that its possible . same kind of beginner mistakes maybe like hedging in same currency, martingale or recovery systems .....so many do this so wrong and often hard to see for them until they calculate all by numbers to the last detail). in general its a cheating style, where you know the result already and of course need to result in no payouts at all from brokers (or any other client of the broker who trades will lose his money because broker gets bankrupt of this cheating people who cant trade).
  • #35,937
  • Edited 7:51am May 5, 2024 7:02am | Edited 7:51am
Quoting montygoldy
{quote} There is a rumour going on for a while increasing from 3 to 10 XFA accounts. If they do so i'll purchase right away. Loving everything about them so far. I think every monday if you follow their topsteptv easily can score multiple free RESETS. I already did twice. I was one button click close away today purchasing 3x150k takeprofittrader while watching a review on youtube where it opened my eyes they have CANADA in banned countries for Funded accounts for tradovate. Which is a surprise this is the first ever company banning Canada. THen...
Yes, was looking at TakeProfitTrader as well. Once over the buffer, withdrawal how much you'd like, whenever you like.....it's truly like your own account at that point..............
BUT, once you make 5K, your SIM days are over, you (I believe) are forced to PRO+ on a live account. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as long as the expense of the pro fees still make it worth it to not simply trade your own account.
I am of the opinion, once your SIM days are over AT ANY FIRM and you are forced live, you no longer need the firm, they are simply a middle man taking a cut at that point.
Forex props were different as they provide so much more DD than your initial expense, it would take 10-14 months for your personal account to surpass the prop account. Plus, of course, the fact that you are never live.
The "buffer" is what makes the differenece with the futures props as it greatly reduces the firms risk.
Once again, props are simply a way of accelerating your personal account growth.
  • #35,938
  • May 5, 2024 8:29am May 5, 2024 8:29am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, was looking at TakeProfitTrader as well. Once over the buffer, withdrawal how much you'd like, whenever you like.....it's truly like your own account at that point.............. BUT, once you make 5K, your SIM days are over, you (I believe) are forced to PRO+ on a live account. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as long as the expense of the pro fees still make it worth it to not simply trade your own account. I am of the opinion, once your SIM days are over AT ANY FIRM and you are forced live, you no longer need the firm, they are...
Agreed, take the profits from sim firms to fund one’s own account.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #35,939
  • May 5, 2024 10:13am May 5, 2024 10:13am
Quoting montygoldy
{quote} There is a rumour going on for a while increasing from 3 to 10 XFA accounts. If they do so i'll purchase right away. Loving everything about them so far. I think every monday if you follow their topsteptv easily can score multiple free RESETS. I already did twice. I was one button click close away today purchasing 3x150k takeprofittrader while watching a review on youtube where it opened my eyes they have CANADA in banned countries for Funded accounts for tradovate. Which is a surprise this is the first ever company banning Canada. THen...
Most probably it will be like Bulenox. You can't have 10 or 11 accounts like Apex. One needs to cross threshold for first 3 and additional accounts may be requested one by one.
  • #35,940
  • May 5, 2024 10:15am May 5, 2024 10:15am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, was looking at TakeProfitTrader as well. Once over the buffer, withdrawal how much you'd like, whenever you like.....it's truly like your own account at that point.............. BUT, once you make 5K, your SIM days are over, you (I believe) are forced to PRO+ on a live account. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, as long as the expense of the pro fees still make it worth it to not simply trade your own account. I am of the opinion, once your SIM days are over AT ANY FIRM and you are forced live, you no longer need the firm, they are...
I think it is optional. Why any one wants to be on live account unless forced as with live account they will take 120$ monthly professional fees on the top of other fees. Also with live account one cannot blow and recycle accounts.
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