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  • #28,261
  • Jan 14, 2024 12:14pm Jan 14, 2024 12:14pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yet, we are the "knuckleheads". The funny thing is, those of us using prop firms properly and successfully.........I guarantee our perosnal accounts are larger than any of the "smart" ones on here claiming what idiots we are. Used correctly, the props are simply an accelerator for your personal funds.
I’m coming round to your previous assertion that the best way to milk prop firms is to build up 15 accounts @ 100k each. Then ride it until the firm stops paying or goes bust.

Clearly there is little to no longevity in the current prop firm model
  • #28,262
  • Jan 14, 2024 12:48pm Jan 14, 2024 12:48pm
Quoting PropDude1234
You are others who are interested enough to use a niche website and discuss it may be switched on enough to recognised nuanced changes, but you and those others are likely at the top end of knowledge of props. I would bet 90% have no idea.
-I suppose that commonsense reasoning would need to dictate here. Even if, as you suggest, only 10% of traders would recognize highly questionable activity, then that would need to assume that such manipulations would not have taken place for those 10% of traders, for whatever reason, which doesn't seem likely, or, that the questionable activity was subtle in nature, and arguably negligible, if 90% of all traders did not notice. And if that is true, then what are we really talking about here?

Quoting PropDude1234
TFT .../... the manipulation is blatant and measurable.
-This point we can agree on. TFTP is not very popular among traders here. As you say, there are many complaints floating around about their manipulation. It is known. Many traders do not use them because of it (and for other reasons).

Even still, though, some traders continue to use them. But to each their own. We should have the free will to choose where we want to invest our own money, and to not have to rely on government intervention that is so restrictive that we no longer have any choices left. This is a big problem in the broker space for US residents. Hopefully you can understand the push-back.
  • #28,263
  • Jan 14, 2024 12:51pm Jan 14, 2024 12:51pm
Quoting CableJ
Option 1 - Trade 140K in 100% losable drawdown of someone else's money (MFF + FTMO + E8 + TFF + TFT) that cost me <$2000 to accumulate after discounts & refunds Option 2 - Put 140K of my own money at risk Even if Option 1 cost me 6-7K with no discounts + refunds, I would have still gone that route.
It can be explained even more simply....been posted many times. Clearly, some aren't paying attention.
Pay $500 for a 100K challenge and simutaneously deposit $500 in a personal account. Stage 1 the average target is 8% with 10% DD, you'd have $900 in personal account. Stage 2 is 5% with 10% DD, $900 becomes $1,350. Prop firm refunds the $500, so apples to apples, you must pull $500 from personal, leaving you $850. With the prop you have 10K DD, with 80-90% split, let's call it $8,500.....it is 10X what you would have in personal account. Some will argue, it is actually daily DD, which is half, but let's realistically assume nobody is going to risk half their account in 1 day.
Repeat 10 times, you have $85,000 to trade with vs. $8,500.
Now, over time, the personal account will surpass the prop. It is around the 10th cycle of flipping the account. May take 6 months, may take 10 years. Keep in mind, during these 10 cycles, you are withdrawling from the props, but to compound the personal, money must stay in.
Firm goes bust, regulators shut it down, black swan event.......you've lost nothing.....take another challenge to replace it.
Personal account........you've lost everything.
Please, somebody present an actual common sense rebuttal to this logic, not just the bullshit pushing one's own agenda.
  • #28,264
  • Jan 14, 2024 12:58pm Jan 14, 2024 12:58pm
I'd like to point out that West water associates, and anyone using them or affiliated with them are scammers. They have been running around offering ponzi like institutional models to naive prop owners. Guaranteeing b-books and other nonsense. I believe one of their companies is qliquidity or something. All of them are talking complete bollocks on twitter, avoid anything affiliated to them like the plague. They are heavily involved with bespoke for what its worth.
  • #28,265
  • Jan 14, 2024 1:22pm Jan 14, 2024 1:22pm
Quoting Zuke
Clearly there is little to no longevity in the current prop firm model
-It has always been understood that the longevity of the remote prop model was unknown, especially before regulators got involved. We always knew that things could come to an end tomorrow. But that is how we must think as traders. Any broker could be gone tomorrow; you mitigate risk, adapt and diversify accordingly.

But just because you prepare and strategize for the worst, does not mean that it is guaranteed or even expected to happen. For all we know, some version of the remote prop model may be here to stay. There is clearly strong demand for it.

The remote prop model has not evolved (or devolved, depending on who you ask) to the same level of unregulated, offshore brokerages. That could still happen. I, for one, am grateful to have access to unregulated, offshore brokers.
  • #28,266
  • Jan 14, 2024 1:23pm Jan 14, 2024 1:23pm
Probably, it is easy for some of you to keep arguing against these unregulated models, because you are not a US citizen and have no true understanding of what it is like to be treated like a pariah, with very few and poor brokerage options. For you, your regulation may function differently (and maybe even better), so you cannot possibly understand.

For those that keep criticizing the remote prop model... if any of you can open an account with IC Markets, Pepperstone, Tickmill et al., then of course you will advocate for regulation, all day long, but you really have no understanding about what it's like.
  • #28,267
  • Jan 14, 2024 1:28pm Jan 14, 2024 1:28pm
Quoting Nsak3y
Probably, it is easy for some of you to keep arguing against these unregulated models, because you are not a US citizen and have no true understanding of what it is like to be treated like a pariah, with very few and poor brokerage options. For you, your regulation may function differently (and maybe even better), so you cannot possibly understand. For those that keep criticizing the remote prop model... if any of you can open an account with IC Markets, Pepperstone, Tickmill et al., then of course you will advocate for regulation, all day long,...
The problem isn't so much regulation as it is the utterly corrupt US government. There, I said it.
  • #28,268
  • Jan 14, 2024 1:49pm Jan 14, 2024 1:49pm
Quoting Stoneyrocks
{quote} should his live leverage be 100:1 ?
yes
Intraday only.
  • #28,269
  • Jan 14, 2024 1:57pm Jan 14, 2024 1:57pm
Quoting AaronPriest
The problem isn't so much regulation as it is the utterly corrupt US government.
-Yes. It's all one in the same, really. We've been trying to make it clear that things are not all as they should be here, all of the time.

It may be difficult or impossible for some to understand our differences, and that lack of understanding can go both ways.

America often gets a bad rap, and for many justifiable reasons, but although it may be easy to generalize a group of people based on what can be seen in the media or how a particular government behaves etc., it is not always appropriate or applicable to the majority.

We would all do better to try to be more understanding of our differences in lieu of making assumptions and judgments, especially when we have not walked in each other's shoes before.

Just because you think or believe one way about something or someone, does not mean that it is true. Likewise, just because things may work well for you, does not mean that it may work well for others, especially when the circumstances may be vastly different.

Regulation is not universally similar across the board. There are varying degrees of it, with varying levels of success (and failure). What you experience in terms of regulatory structure and practice may be very different across the pond.

Everyone is different; perhaps having different goals, facing different challenges and circumstances, having different levels of risk tolerance and capital etc.. Who are we to judge what is appropriate for others?

At the end of the day, one thing that we can all probably agree on, is that it is almost always better to have free will than to not, especially if having it does not harm others.
  • #28,270
  • Jan 14, 2024 2:39pm Jan 14, 2024 2:39pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I'm doing a challenge there. That is owned by the same guy than Blue Guardian. It's not 14 trading days, it's just 14 days. At least that's what they have written in FAQs. "Payout Frequency and Virtual Profit Split The first payout will be made 14 days after the first trade, and subsequent payouts will be made every 14 days. Payouts will be processed within 24-48 hours. Subsequent withdrawals...
I just got an email
One of they team said they have wrong information
So payout date will be 14 days

I have blue guardian I don't know why my execution trade delay 5 second
Do you experience that ?
  • #28,271
  • Jan 14, 2024 5:03pm Jan 14, 2024 5:03pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I suppose that commonsense reasoning would need to dictate here. Even if, as you suggest, only 10% of traders would recognize highly questionable activity, then that would need to assume that such manipulations would not have taken place for those 10% of traders, for whatever reason, which doesn't seem likely, or, that the questionable activity was subtle in nature, and arguably negligible, if 90% of all traders did not notice. And if that is true, then what are we really talking about here? {quote}-This point we can agree on. TFTP is not...
I appreciate that US residents may well feel differently and have different experiences. The US clearly doesn't want CFDs hence their unjustified prohibition in 2010.

A sweet spot may be for props who are appropriately and proportionally regulated outside of the US and still being able to offer services to US customers. Whether that's possible or not I don't know.

The MFF case conclusion may well offer a lot of clarity, it may well not. We'll have to see what happens.
  • #28,272
  • Jan 14, 2024 5:07pm Jan 14, 2024 5:07pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yet, we are the "knuckleheads". The funny thing is, those of us using prop firms properly and successfully.........I guarantee our perosnal accounts are larger than any of the "smart" ones on here claiming what idiots we are. Used correctly, the props are simply an accelerator for your personal funds.
Hi pipmaster,

I say to anyone that is calling those of you trading with a prop firms idiots... they are the idiots not you guys & gals. I think you are the smart ones using other people's money to make money as that is a tried & true method to obtain financial freedom. All of my trading since my day as a SOSES Bandit have been back by a private investor. Their only requirement was for me to make a profit in 60 days. They left the mechanics of how to do that up to me. In the next week I'm going to purchase a 50K Challege with the 5ers & if I fail the challenge, I'll revert back to trading my own funds I made by using other people's money.

I enjoy your post as you & I are on the same page in reference to trading & how messed up our USA government is at this time.

Best of trades to you, my friend.
  • #28,273
  • Jan 14, 2024 5:27pm Jan 14, 2024 5:27pm
Quoting PropDude1234
A sweet spot may be for props who are appropriately and proportionally regulated outside of the US and still being able to offer services to US customers. Whether that's possible or not I don't know.
-Not possible. We are the property of the United States, in the eyes of regulators. The only way that we could ever be accepted and no longer treated as radioactive (short of a complete, regulatory overhaul) would be if our government allows for some sort of opt-out clause, allowing US citizens the opportunity to opt-out of their so-called, regulatory protections. I do not see that ever happening, because regulation in this country is a pay-to-play game and is way too profitable.
  • #28,274
  • Jan 14, 2024 6:07pm Jan 14, 2024 6:07pm
I will add that this is why many US traders are willing to trade with unregulated brokers, because our options are severely limited/poor and unregulated brokers are the only brokers outside of the US that will accept us.
  • #28,275
  • Jan 14, 2024 6:16pm Jan 14, 2024 6:16pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Not possible. We are the property of the United States, in the eyes of regulators. The only way that we could ever be accepted and no longer treated as radioactive (short of a complete, regulatory overhaul) would be if our government allows for some sort of opt-out clause, allowing US citizens the opportunity to opt-out of their so-called, regulatory protections. I do not see that ever happening, because regulation in this country is a pay-to-play game and is way too profitable.
Although a novel idea....an option to opt out will never be placed on the trader's table. That is giving the poorly trader options & a dictatorship just doesn't allow that of its servants.
  • #28,276
  • Jan 14, 2024 8:17pm Jan 14, 2024 8:17pm
Quoting acetrader
Although a novel idea....an option to opt out will never be placed on the trader's table. That is giving the poorly trader options & a dictatorship just doesn't allow that of its servants.
-The sad reality is, it's not even about us.
  • #28,277
  • Jan 15, 2024 12:57am Jan 15, 2024 12:57am
Quoting HengkiTjen
Anyone using MyFlushFunding ?? Just find out payout bi-weekly they mean 14 days trading days they are different
wondering we can do crypto trading on weekends.. shouldn’t it be counted as a trading day??
Extreme gut feeling trader
  • #28,278
  • Jan 15, 2024 3:36am Jan 15, 2024 3:36am
Quoting HengkiTjen
I have blue guardian I don't know why my execution trade delay 5 second Do you experience that ?
All normal with them, no delays.
  • #28,279
  • Jan 15, 2024 4:22am Jan 15, 2024 4:22am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} It can be explained even more simply....been posted many times. Clearly, some aren't paying attention. Pay $500 for a 100K challenge and simutaneously deposit $500 in a personal account. Stage 1 the average target is 8% with 10% DD, you'd have $900 in personal account. Stage 2 is 5% with 10% DD, $900 becomes $1,350. Prop firm refunds the $500, so apples to apples, you must pull $500 from personal, leaving you $850. With the prop you have 10K DD, with 80-90% split, let's call it $8,500.....it is 10X what you would have in personal account....
Fully agree on the math, except:
"Stage 1 the average target is 8% with 10% DD, you'd have $900 in personal account" 8% on personal account is 540 U$, or am I wrong?

Personal account........you've lost everything (absolutely, maybe more than that).
  • #28,280
  • Jan 15, 2024 4:34am Jan 15, 2024 4:34am
This is my business plan.
I live in newly communist Germany ,so they have this "law" where on CFDs you can only deduct 20K from losses.

I have 4 props.
1 Broker.

I trust neither.

I have a trading edge.
PLAN: milk the props as far as they can go, then look for a new prop. (Btw. communist Germany only allows a handful of props that comply with their
"Gestapo rules").
Every time I double my broker account, take out the profits, but increase leverage on the trades as if the whole amount was still there. That is to avoid: " Swanny bird", and make sure my broker pays me.

Once all those risks are mitigated, I need to face the german Finanzamt and see if they are kind enough to leave me some hard-earned cash.
The government already decided their intention is to "destroy the trader profession".
They want everyone working for a "State Factory", they already have plans of expropriating all the Dax companies, "for the good of the people".
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