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  • #25,781
  • Nov 9, 2023 3:36am Nov 9, 2023 3:36am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} I remember Josh calming in discord that their volume was bigger than most large FX brokers.
But this is just the A-traders. Being so little % o traders in A-book I wonder what was the average lot size per tarde of those guys. It has to be big.

In B-Booking with all yolo traders it's probably trillions.
  • #25,782
  • Nov 9, 2023 3:40am Nov 9, 2023 3:40am
Anyone spotted how different micro and mini dow futures looks like on small timeframes ?? recently micro (MYM) fut made new high but mini (YM) didnt . It is good indicator for short term top bottoms.
  • #25,783
  • Nov 9, 2023 4:00am Nov 9, 2023 4:00am
Quoting youngD
Anyone spotted how different micro and mini dow futures looks like on small timeframes ?? recently micro (MYM) fut made new high but mini (YM) didnt . It is good indicator for short term top bottoms.
Micros use to have a wider spread during non RTH than the mini one.
This may cause an high or a low to be printed without correspondence in the lower one.
But usually very low volume (someone that crossed the spread) and it can't be much more than 1 point with decent volume, otherwise there would be arbitrage like buying 10 MYM and selling 1 YM or vice versa.
  • #25,784
  • Edited 4:43am Nov 9, 2023 4:24am | Edited 4:43am
What is problematic when using the order splitting tool built-in with Rithmic ? I mean you set your quantity ratio and then make one bigger order and then it is all distributed. Your big one larger order does not show up nowhere as it is already splitted when executed. So what could be the problem here with Apex ? Who knows ?
  • #25,785
  • Nov 9, 2023 5:27am Nov 9, 2023 5:27am
take a look of the "pivot points" used by many traders on Tradovate, interesting reactions there...

starting today, I will add it to monitor sometime these levels.

Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Micros use to have a wider spread during non RTH than the mini one. This may cause an high or a low to be printed without correspondence in the lower one. But usually very low volume (someone that crossed the spread) and it can't be much more than 1 point with decent volume, otherwise there would be arbitrage like buying 10 MYM and selling 1 YM or vice versa.
I have seen it in liquids hours, regular hours, sometime the micro can stop few ticks before or after the mini.

But this is normal, very hard to filter if it will be a high low of the day, simply they took liquidity in mini or micros, and that happens, doesn't happen always on both books.
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in holiday till end of November
  • #25,786
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:06am Nov 9, 2023 6:06am
Quoting TrAndy1
What is problematic when using the order splitting tool built-in with Rithmic ? I mean you set your quantity ratio and then make one bigger order and then it is all distributed. Your big one larger order does not show up nowhere as it is already splitted when executed. So what could be the problem here with Apex ? Who knows ?
Can you explain better your issue?

In tradovate works like this:

Account 1 - 1 lot
Account 2 - 1 lots
Account 3 - 3 lots

Total = 5
Multiple have to be of 5

In the dome of Tradovate you execute 5, and those get splitted.

In the dome you see long 5 or short 5 and total profit and loss.

For what you said, it works but you don't see your position of +5 or -5 in your dome?
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,787
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:12am Nov 9, 2023 6:12am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} Can you explain better your issue? In tradovate works like this: Account 1 - 1 lot Account 2 - 1 lots Account 3 - 3 lots Total = 5 Multiple have to be of 5 In the dome of Tradovate you execute 5, and those get splitted. In the dome you see long 5 or short 5 and total profit and loss. For what you said, it works but you don't see your position of +5 or -5 in your dome?
idk that is why I asked.
  • #25,788
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:17am Nov 9, 2023 6:17am
Quoting TrAndy1
What is problematic when using the order splitting tool built-in with Rithmic ? I mean you set your quantity ratio and then make one bigger order and then it is all distributed. Your big one larger order does not show up nowhere as it is already splitted when executed. So what could be the problem here with Apex ? Who knows ?
I contacted them and they say it's not forbitten to use only Rithmic and Rithmic copier but they don't recommend using Rithmic (alone) and are not responsible for any errors that may happen. Using Rithmic or its copier is not a violation.
  • #25,789
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:17am Nov 9, 2023 6:17am
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  • #25,790
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:21am Nov 9, 2023 6:21am
Quoting CableJ
{quote} I wonder if that 3.5B is leading to excess depth of market slippage, which then leads to successful simulation traders turning into unprofitable live traders. I was in MFF's VIP (all abook/stp) + didn't blow a live account in >1 year trading with them and I didn't really notice any difference in execution.
I strongly doubt that it was messing with their feed since its clear the feed on the platform was not the same feed as the STP accounts. There are a bunch of messages stating they had to get off the stp feed because it kept freezing and spreads kept getting blown out. I remember the freezes sometime last year. Theres a bunch of uniformality comments also where they are trying to keep everything from phase 1 to stp uniform as best as possible.

At this point in time it seems silly to discuss it because I am seeing really dumb comments on twitter all the time about "slippage is criminal" and other stupid shit. Reality is based on the CFTC claim STP was worse than not STP. Which makes sense because depth of market is very hard to mimic, so b book traders are always going to get better than market unless you widen slippage bands to really ugly levels.

For now the only thing to do is wait for the result. People are betting either way, I don't see much positive conduct from the CFTC so I think it is leaning MFF's way but no idea how much or to what extent. The response to the defense was very clear that the CFTC does not want this business model to exist.
  • #25,791
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:26am Nov 9, 2023 6:26am
Anyone here who already paid taxes on his prop firm gains for the year 2022 ? I did started more in 2023 so I cannot tell my experience. I would like to know if you had to pay sales tax or turnover tax on your profit split in addition of income taxes ? Because others say on financial transactions there is no sales tax to be paid on tax authorities. So what was reality for you then ?
  • #25,792
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:32am Nov 9, 2023 6:32am
whats tax
  • #25,793
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:36am Nov 9, 2023 6:36am
Quoting Takisd
The response to the defense was very clear that the CFTC does not want this business model to exist.
-Which is probably no surprise to anyone that frequents this thread.

I still wonder about the STP accounts. Why wouldn't MFF just route their 'a-book' trades to various brokers, where the conditions are likely going to be better (b-book conditions)? Was padding the spreads really offsetting the risk that much for them? This part still remains unclear to me.
  • #25,794
  • Nov 9, 2023 6:40am Nov 9, 2023 6:40am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Which is probably no surprise to anyone that frequents this thread. I still wonder about the STP accounts. Why wouldn't MFF just route their 'a-book' trades to various brokers, where the conditions are likely going to be better (b-book conditions)? Was padding the spreads really offsetting the risk that much for them? This part still remains unclear to me.
Their conditions were still better than any LP due to ticket sizes.

Ive voiced my opinion that MFF didnt do anything wrong here so I am not going to beat that drum anymore. I am more interested in the CFTC and how they are going to approach the next step. They might not even want to settle. It will be the tell on where things are going and futures won't be saved by this as well, the futures props will be on the chopper too.
  • #25,795
  • Nov 9, 2023 7:01am Nov 9, 2023 7:01am
Quoting Capablanca
{image}
Describes every firm other than the one they shut down.......still cannot believe what a fucking joke the entire past year has been in this space. You cannot even make this up.
We have hundreds of 20 year old "CEOs" jumping on this wagon in the past year, just outright lying and scamming people. Playing dirty and doing everything possible to NOT pay people and the one company that had the model figured out, knew how to mitigate their risk, played fair and happily paid the successful traders.....the "regulators" pick that one to shut down.
  • #25,796
  • Nov 9, 2023 7:06am Nov 9, 2023 7:06am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I contacted them and they say it's not forbitten to use only Rithmic and Rithmic copier but they don't recommend using Rithmic (alone) and are not responsible for any errors that may happen. Using Rithmic or its copier is not a violation.
probably that's why tradovate costs 20$ more and also offer tradingview access you can use both at same time, TW+mac+win+browser, usually max 3.

Tradovate copier worked well to me, I never got 1 error, profits the same on each account.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,797
  • Nov 9, 2023 7:13am Nov 9, 2023 7:13am
Quoting josh1111
Wow the rabbit hole goes deeper and darker the more I explore these platforms. Found this video that shows how to connect Tradovate to Tradingview which gives a better interface to analyze charts and trade from directly. Next problem is how to perform Group/Copy trades with what they call Brackets(i.e.SL/TP) Really can't believe 20 year old MT4 is so superior to all of this Futures Platform crap. Future needs to get with the Future part and get a little more futuristic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCDE1c0ODDU
Hi Josh,
I feel your pain, but it will get much better as you go. The struggle is well worth the better results you will eventually get trading futures.
I had an account with FXCM when they first setup shop & their trade station software was the best ordering software I've ever used. Hang in there & it will get better soon.
  • #25,798
  • Nov 9, 2023 7:17am Nov 9, 2023 7:17am
Quoting Takisd
Ive voiced my opinion that MFF didnt do anything wrong here so I am not going to beat that drum anymore.
-I do not care much if they did or did not at this point. I am just curious.
  • #25,799
  • Nov 9, 2023 7:20am Nov 9, 2023 7:20am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I do not care much if they did or did not at this point. I am just curious.
You can use a broker and access many LP's, its a cheaper way to do so. I do not think they were subject to a single LP given the ticket sizes of props, most likely CFD's were going somewhere like saxo or dukas and FX were going to Prime of prime or tier 1 depending on pair.

The complaint itself highlights the problem with prop firm order flow and that is a) not profitable and b) the ticket sizes result in execution decay.
  • #25,800
  • Nov 9, 2023 7:39am Nov 9, 2023 7:39am
I am just trying to understand the logic. Wouldn't the trades for STP be treated individually and not as a group? And then, broken up into smaller sizes across multiple brokers? I am struggling to understand how the live conditions were worse and causing traders to fail, given that any truly a-book scenario would be at the discretion of each broker.

I guess it doesn't matter. I am out of my element with this anyway.
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