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  • #25,361
  • Nov 2, 2023 2:57pm Nov 2, 2023 2:57pm
Quoting TrAndy1
If you pass in first month you pay for the $50k at Apex $105 but for the 300k you pay $145, so the difference is 40% more but you get 3 times more DD. So this is a trade off for the bigger flipping you need to do. Even you need 2 months for completing, then you have $140 versus ca. $280 only for the 300k. So again an advantage.
As I was thinking, a mix of 50K and 300K could be a good idea for what you see of good in the 50K and somebody on the 300K

And for who has just 1-2-3 accounts to pay the lifetime fee could eliminate this monthly fee, if you are confident to make at least a payout, would worth it, so the unique fee to pay will be just the 20% of the full fee, 34$ for a 50K and 130$ for a 300K.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,362
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:00pm Nov 2, 2023 3:00pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} As I was thinking, a mix of 50K and 300K could be a good idea for what you see of good in the 50K and somebody on the 300K And for who has just 1-2-3 accounts to pay the lifetime fee could eliminate this monthly fee, if you are confident to make at least a payout, would worth it, so the unique fee to pay will be just the 20% of the full fee, 34$ for a 50K and 130$ for a 300K.
Wait...do you say the lifetime fee is for all accounts together ? I think it is per account or ?? Then again 300k is better. Because when you make it on funded PA account you need to pay nearly all available DD as payout on the 50k (you make $2500 and you payout $2000), so you have only $500 left for all DD on next cycle. So "nothing" is left for further trading. Not a good idea I would say. Again if you trade until $5000 profit you can also make it on the 300k to go for $15000 where you get a lor more.
  • #25,363
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:05pm Nov 2, 2023 3:05pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} As I was thinking, a mix of 50K and 300K could be a good idea for what you see of good in the 50K and somebody on the 300K And for who has just 1-2-3 accounts to pay the lifetime fee could eliminate this monthly fee, if you are confident to make at least a payout, would worth it, so the unique fee to pay will be just the 20% of the full fee, 34$ for a 50K and 130$ for a 300K.
On the 300k account you would never opt for the lifetime fee as it is too expensive and you never know how successful you will be. So you only pay $85 per month. And every month you get a payout, because when you fail you also do not need to pay anymore those $85 fee. I think the bet is too big to go for the lifetime fee on any funded account regardless account size. And on 50k again you get full payout, so you basically cannot continue to trade anymore. If you payout only the minimum the fee is too much in relation when you compare it to the 300k account. Again the 300k account wins. I think everyone needs to be more familiar with the numbers here.
  • #25,364
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:08pm Nov 2, 2023 3:08pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} On the 300k account you would never opt for the lifetime fee as it is too expensive and you never know how successful you will be. So you only pay $85 per month. And every month you get a payout, because when you fail you also do not need to pay anymore those $85 fee. I think the bet is too big to go for the lifetime fee on any funded account regardless account size. And on 50k again you get full payout, so you basically cannot continue to trade anymore. If you payout only the minimum the fee is too much in relation when you compare it to...
yes it is correct, on the 300K worth to pay monthly, ok for us on tradovate is 105$ remember.

Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Wait...do you say the lifetime fee is for all accounts together ? I think it is per account or ?? Then again 300k is better. Because when you make it on funded PA account you need to pay nearly all available DD as payout on the 50k (you make $2500 and you payout $2000), so you have only $500 left for all DD on next cycle. So "nothing" is left for further trading. Not a good idea I would say. Again if you trade until $5000 profit you can also make it on the 300k to go for $15000 where you get a lor more.
This is not clear to me. Why you need to think yearly? I make 1500$ per month and I pay just 105$ + 34$, as I can do may be some month 3000$ who knows.

However. My idea was to use a 50K as master, and copy the traders, with same ratio on the 300K.

This would be for me the best set up, a mix.

Nobody answered i the copy trader of tradovate is good enought for it. I will trade just micros on both.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,365
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:24pm Nov 2, 2023 3:24pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} yes it is correct, on the 300K worth to pay monthly, ok for us on tradovate is 105$ remember. {quote} This is not clear to me. Why you need to think yearly? I make 1500$ per month and I pay just 105$ + 34$, as I can do may be some month 3000$ who knows. However. My idea was to use a 50K as master, and copy the traders, with same ratio on the 300K. This would be for me the best set up, a mix. Nobody answered i the copy trader of tradovate is good enought for it. I will trade just micros on both.
That is the question whether it is useful to use a copy trader or not. It depends on the volume you enter and how much the market bid ask volume is offering. Because if the market is simulated on Apex it means you get much more slippage if you trade all accounts at once, which you do with copy trading. So I cannot use copy trader.
For example I would enter 10 contracts on a currency future, so I cannot copy this to 20 accounts because 200 contracts would make too much noise and I would get too much slippage here. Only when the market is correctly simulated when I think Apex is doing. So copy trader is worthless here. Only makes sense if you trade 1 or max. 2 contracts then it can be copied. But again on Nasdaq even 20 contracts or 40 contracts hitting market is too much for minimal slippage. Best to avoid the copy trader I think. You can easily open and close any trades within Rithmic. It takes a few seconds only. Only for scalpers it would not be possible because every second counts here, but for all other traders I think it is better to trade all manually without copy trader.
  • #25,366
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:30pm Nov 2, 2023 3:30pm
Quoting TrAndy1
So if you pass within 1 month the 300k is clearly better. Then it is similar if you need to pass it within 2 months. But I would say this is indifferent from the numbers. So go for the higher absolute money you can make with the 300k even the difficulty versus value is the same like 50k if you pass in 2 months. Go for the $300k acc. really.
I dont understand logic of using 300K account even if you pass in 1st month for simple reason, one still needs to make 7.5K to withdraw 3.5K and trailing threshold still exists. With 50K life time fees is 140$ where as 300K it is around 350$. Lesser the target lesser threshold for trailing drawdown faster withdrawal. One can get 20 accounts which you can easily rotate if you want high risk trades...
People tend to forget one thing in futures there is trailing drawdown not like forex firms where drawdown is static. So trader has to make same amount of money to stop trailing drawdown and qualify for withdrawal so smaller and cheaper is better as trader needs to earn threshold.
  • #25,367
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:34pm Nov 2, 2023 3:34pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} I dont understand logic of using 300K account even if you pass in 1st month for simple reason, one still needs to make 7.5K to withdraw 3.5K and trailing threshold still exists. With 50K life time fees is 140$ where as 300K it is around 350$. Lesser the target lesser threshold for trailing drawdown faster withdrawal.
You did not make the comparison correctly. Take monthly $85 fees. Because this is the best option you have. You pay less in both examples. You would never opt for the lifetime fee on the 300k account. But I will stop here now as it gets too dumb for me to continue. If you make your own calculation I hope it is good for you. Point.
And for the 2.5k target which is the minimum on the 50k it is exactly same difficult to make 7.5k profit on the 7.5k DD at the 300k account. Same difficulty, to 100%.
  • #25,368
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:36pm Nov 2, 2023 3:36pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} That is the question whether it is useful to use a copy trader or not. It depends on the volume you enter and how much the market bid ask volume is offering. Because if the market is simulated on Apex it means you get much more slippage if you trade all accounts at once, which you do with copy trading. So I cannot use copy trader.
I found the way in tradovate to show in real time where is my trailing.
My is 1381 now, down from 1500

So just 1-2 bad day, and a "small drawdown" will keep you worried and let you fail may be.

So now I understand what you mean for the 300K. Better suffer 1-2 months to arrive to the profit goal, but to keep a drawdown 3 times higher will give you much more peace. But we have also to say that at some point the DD will not trail anymore. I made 2400$ profit on 1500$, but to me it is still trailing. May be because it is the evaluation.

However, I will think 1-2 days more then decide. My idea continue to be to use as "master" a small account 25-50K and slave a "300K" so you make payout to survive with the 50% of your accounts 25 or 50K and you wait after xx months your 300K going in target.

What do you think? You don't see anything positive in this mix?
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in holiday till end of November
  • #25,369
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:37pm Nov 2, 2023 3:37pm
The lifetime fee for the 50k makes only sense if you trade the funded account much slowlier and up to 4.5k profit so you can withdraw 2k and still can continue to trade because you then have 2.5k as DD left. That is the only way I see the 50k account is more favorable here. But only to some extent. Not as overall suggestion I say.
  • #25,370
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:40pm Nov 2, 2023 3:40pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} That is the question whether it is useful to use a copy trader or not. It depends on the volume you enter and how much the market bid ask volume is offering. Because if the market is simulated on Apex it means you get much more slippage if you trade all accounts at once, which you do with copy trading. So I cannot use copy trader. For example I would enter 10 contracts on a currency future, so I cannot copy this to 20 accounts because 200 contracts would make too much noise and I would get too much slippage here. Only when the market is...
About copytrading. I trade 1 lot per trade. 1 micro, so if I have a master, and I have as slave let's say other 4 accounts, my total size will be 5.

I would never go even with 20 accounts, but won't be this time, with more than 1 lot per account. I don't scalp heavy like most of the lots I can use for few ticks. I trade with just 1 lot, in different points, in and out. So I hope that I won't have slippage issue with just 5 lots I will use for 5 accounts max I will take.
I just hope this group trade of tradovate, is a decent tool, will link well, and will be easy to use.

Also I forgot to say, I trade via dome, with limit orders, I don't use so much market orders, stops etc, 95% of the time I use limit.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,371
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:40pm Nov 2, 2023 3:40pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} I found the way in tradovate to show in real time where is my trailing. My is 1381 now, down from 1500 So just 1-2 bad day, and a "small drawdown" will keep you worried and let you fail may be. So now I understand what you mean for the 300K. Better suffer 1-2 months to arrive to the profit goal, but to keep a drawdown 3 times higher will give you much more peace. But we have also to say that at some point the DD will not trail anymore. I made 2400$ profit on 1500$, but to me it is still trailing. May be because it is the evaluation. However,...
Did you ask support why the trailing did not stop at 25100 as it should be ? I find this forever trailing strange as it is against what they say on website.
  • #25,372
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:42pm Nov 2, 2023 3:42pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You did not make the comparison correctly. Take monthly $85 fees. Because this is the best option you have. You pay less in both examples. You would never opt for the lifetime fee on the 300k account. But I will stop here now as it gets too dumb for me to continue. If you make your own calculation I hope it is good for you. Point. And for the 2.5k target which is the minimum on the 50k it is exactly same difficult to make 7.5k profit on the 7.5k DD at the 300k account. Same difficulty, to 100%.
Wow awesome logic so you mean to say if you have an option to choose monthly fees of 85$ or one time fees of 140$ and one time fees you will choose monthly fees. With 300K I can understand 85$ better because you dont know if account will survive for 4 months but for 50K it doesn't make sense to choose monthly.
For 300K you need to make 7.5K to eligible for withdrawal but for 50K you need 2.6K plus traling stops at 2.5k where as with 300K even if you make 5K and loose 5K you lost 5k thats the difference.
  • #25,373
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:45pm Nov 2, 2023 3:45pm
Quoting TrAndy1
The lifetime fee for the 50k makes only sense if you trade the funded account much slowlier and up to 4.5k profit so you can withdraw 2k and still can continue to trade because you then have 2.5k as DD left. That is the only way I see the 50k account is more favorable here. But only to some extent. Not as overall suggestion I say.
But if the DD at sometime doesn't "trail" anymore, if I do for example on a 50K account (3000$ profit goal) in a year 30.000$ profit, and I leave on the account 10000$ of my profits, my DD will be 10000$ and not only 2500$, this will be 4 times bigger.

Or am I wrong? At some point the DD is locked and doesn't trail.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,374
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:46pm Nov 2, 2023 3:46pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} Wow awesome logic so you mean to say if you have an option to choose monthly fees of 85$ or one time fees of 140$ and one time fees you will choose monthly fees. With 300K I can understand 85$ better because you dont know if account will survive for 4 months but for 50K it doesn't make sense to choose monthly.
It seems you get it now what I meant. On the 50k the lifetime only makes sense if you know for 100% sure that you will trade these funded accounts at least for 2 months before the first payout. Then it is cheaper. You take it much more slowlier on funded then go for lifetime, but only if you are sure that you need min. 2 months.
  • #25,375
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:47pm Nov 2, 2023 3:47pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Did you ask support why the trailing did not stop at 25100 as it should be ? I find this forever trailing strange as it is against what they say on website.
Good idea we can ask. But I think that that rule is just for the funded accounts, was written somewhere. But seen that I did the screenshoots, worth to ask and then I will report here.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,376
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:49pm Nov 2, 2023 3:49pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} But if the DD at sometime doesn't "trail" anymore, if I do for example on a 50K account (3000$ profit goal) in a year 30.000$ profit, and I leave on the account 10000$ of my profits, my DD will be 10000$ and not only 2500$, this will be 4 times bigger. Or am I wrong? At some point the DD is locked and doesn't trail.
Yes but this is the same on the 300k and on the 300k you can trade up to 35 contracts versus on the 50k you can only trade max. 10 contracts so scaling with the 300k is much more possible in the means of more absolute gains. Again doing 100% DD as profit is same difficult, so doing 2.5k on 50k = doing 7.5k on 300k because of DD.
  • #25,377
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:51pm Nov 2, 2023 3:51pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} But if the DD at sometime doesn't "trail" anymore, if I do for example on a 50K account (3000$ profit goal) in a year 30.000$ profit, and I leave on the account 10000$ of my profits, my DD will be 10000$ and not only 2500$, this will be 4 times bigger. Or am I wrong? At some point the DD is locked and doesn't trail.
Yea but with bigger accounts you need to maintain winning streak. For example with 50K if I make 10K and loose 5K, I still have 5K and on the top of that I can still withdraw 5K and close account where as on 300K if I make 10K and loose 5K, I am not even eligible for withdrawal.
  • #25,378
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:55pm Nov 2, 2023 3:55pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} I dont understand logic of using 300K account even if you pass in 1st month for simple reason, one still needs to make 7.5K to withdraw 3.5K and trailing threshold still exists. With 50K life time fees is 140$ where as 300K it is around 350$. Lesser the target lesser threshold for trailing drawdown faster withdrawal. One can get 20 accounts which you can easily rotate if you want high risk trades... People tend to forget one thing in futures there is trailing drawdown not like forex firms where drawdown is static. So trader has to make same...
Tranny has no idea what he’s talking about. He has zero experience trading futures, zero experience with the platforms, zero experience with any futures prop firms.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #25,379
  • Nov 2, 2023 3:59pm Nov 2, 2023 3:59pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Yes but this is the same on the 300k and on the 300k you can trade up to 35 contracts versus on the 50k you can only trade max. 10 contracts so scaling with the 300k is much more possible in the means of more absolute gains. Again doing 100% DD as profit is same difficult, so doing 2.5k on 50k = doing 7.5k on 300k because of DD.
One thing is sure, and is the unique bring me to believe that the 300K:

1. to trade EMINIs (50$ per point) even just 1-2 lots, could be sufficient to cause in a bad week large drawdowns

2. Because I traded, for 2400$ profit in 3 days, thousands of micros, I can tell you that easily you can have in a single day a drawdown even of 1000$.
A bad week again could be 5x1000= -5000$ this would mean out from 25K 50K 75K and so on

3. Psychological factor: smaller is your max drawdown or trailing, more you can easily feel worried and fail more trades because you are thinking to going to lose that account, this would make smaller account more at risk.

So I'm agree that a bigger drawdown cannot be seen for their ratio 3 times worse than a 25-50K account. Over the long run may be you will lose 3 times more a 25-50K account than a 300K account. Why not consider this in the "ratio" Profit goal / Trailing DD?

So at the moment I have a 25K that I could use as master and link a 50K and 300K to it.
I couldn't imagine to do so easily profit in 3 days so I opted for the 25K for the ratio and because 40 micros could be sufficient for my risk style, but I feel that 1500DD is very little, and a 2500DD could be much better to start again I think is the best account for who cannot afford a 300K.

So I will think now what to do. I wouldn't buy more than 2-3 accounts to link, if I'm not sure that tradovate group copy works well. But I guess yes. Never got a problem with their platform till today.

Quoting sampat
{quote} Yea but with bigger accounts you need to maintain winning streak. For example with 50K if I make 10K and loose 5K, I still have 5K and on the top of that I can still withdraw 5K and close account where as on 300K if I make 10K and loose 5K, I am not even eligible for withdrawal.
that is a good point and a good question for Trandy?

I was never think on that. So, to request a payout, every time we need to do a profit goal? I mean, i was thinking that as you get funded you don't have to reach every time a profit goal for new withdrawals. If true you can't trade slowly the 300K but you have to trade actively like the smaller one.

I need to understand this point very well because otherwise will make the 50K always more safe choice or at least a mix of the two 60/40 75/25, I feel more negative again about the 300K ha ha.
in holiday till end of November
  • #25,380
  • Nov 2, 2023 4:06pm Nov 2, 2023 4:06pm
Quoting forexbali
{quote} One thing is sure, and is the unique bring me to believe that the 300K: 1. to trade EMINIs (50$ per point) even just 1-2 lots, could be sufficient to cause in a bad week large drawdowns 2. Because I traded, for 2400$ profit in 3 days, thousands of micros, I can tell you that easily you can have in a single day a drawdown even of 1000$. A bad week again could be 5x1000= -5000$ this would mean out from 25K 50K 75K and so on 3. Psychological factor: smaller is your max drawdown or trailing, more you can easily feel worried and fail more trades...
I just got confirmed you can buy unlimited EVAL accounts only the PA funded accounts are limited to 20 active ones. So basically you can do your payouts on the 50k first and when you are finished with the 300k accounts you can replace them with the 50k accounts. So all in all you can get more payouts faster with this approach.
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