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  • #24,481
  • Oct 22, 2023 11:29am Oct 22, 2023 11:29am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} If that's the case then it's an HIDDEN rule. Totally hidden. I would like to see that. What keywords should I search in their Discord ?
Confirmation that Martingale in ANY form is prohibited (by the CTI CAO):
https://discord.com/channels/624386695202209795/974684401642393630/1154798498449981501

Confirmation that adding any volume to losing trade is prohibited as well (by some funded member but not disputed by the CAO who was involved in the discussion in that time):
https://discord.com/channels/6243866...52632235024404
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #24,482
  • Oct 22, 2023 11:51am Oct 22, 2023 11:51am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Confirmation that Martingale in ANY form is prohibited (by the CTI CAO): https://discord.com/channels/624386695202209795/974684401642393630/1154798498449981501 Confirmation that adding any volume to losing trade is prohibited as well (by some funded member but not disputed by the CAO who was involved in the discussion in that time): https://discord.com/channels/6243866...52632235024404
I'm getting an error, bot in web browser and in windows app of message failed to load. Anyone else with the same problem ?

Was that written in an open channel ?
  • #24,483
  • Oct 22, 2023 11:52am Oct 22, 2023 11:52am
Quoting TrAndy1
The question is then, if you want to build your position on multiple entries if each position needed to be with higher floating profit or just the average price of all orders?.
-Seems that open positions must be in profit in order to add more. Silly.

So, for traders that want to reduce possible slippage by breaking up their position into smaller sizes, better time those entries right, or else...
  • #24,484
  • Edited 1:39pm Oct 22, 2023 1:08pm | Edited 1:39pm
Quoting labu
Regarding the statistics of the traders vs profitable ones. I wonder what would happen if those 99.3% would demo trade for 5 years several hours straight instead of gambling.
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-If more traders were willing and able to do that, then more traders would be consistently profitable. Period.

Traders in general also don't back test realistically by at least trying to simulate a real market environment...

1. Taking out commission costs w/ every entry & exit
2. Factoring in the spread w/ short trades on bid only MT4/5 charts. That near loss within spread distance to sl that turned into a win was actually a loss since the invisible ask hit the sl. That win where the bid just touched/crossed tp less than the spread then reversed to hit sl was actually a loss since the invisible ask never touched the tp.
3. added slippage = at least market avg spread on every entry & exit

If their system is still profitable factoring in all the above, they would stand a better chance of profitability live. That is until market cycle dynamics come into play where proper risk management is key to survival.
  • #24,485
  • Oct 22, 2023 1:39pm Oct 22, 2023 1:39pm
Forexpropfirm is now recommended

Offering a 2 phase time limit evaluation with no daily drawdown limit. Only max drawdown limit of 12%. Profit targets of 8% and 5%

90% profit split and bi-weekly payout. EA's allowed

Price: $324 (100k account with discount)

Downside: They use eightcap

But you aint gonna find a better deal anywhere else folks
  • #24,486
  • Oct 22, 2023 2:05pm Oct 22, 2023 2:05pm
Quoting Bizziebee
Forexpropfirm is now recommended Offering a 2 phase time limit evaluation with no daily drawdown limit. Only max drawdown limit of 12%. Profit targets of 8% and 5% 90% profit split and bi-weekly payout. EA's allowed Price: $324 (100k account with discount) Downside: They use eightcap But you aint gonna find a better deal anywhere else folks
The only left question I have is, if they do payouts and then how much (in percentage of max. capital) you can make with them before you get problems with them ?
  • #24,487
  • Oct 22, 2023 2:08pm Oct 22, 2023 2:08pm
Quoting Bizziebee
Forexpropfirm is now recommended Offering a 2 phase time limit evaluation with no daily drawdown limit. Only max drawdown limit of 12%. Profit targets of 8% and 5% 90% profit split and bi-weekly payout. EA's allowed Price: $324 (100k account with discount) Downside: They use eightcap But you aint gonna find a better deal anywhere else folks
Probably too good. Here is one latest trustpilot review without knowing all the details:

"
Watch out
UPDATE - support staff have informed me I have no breached a rule so they are just refusing to pay me.


I am currently trying to get a 37k payout with these guys since the 16th of September. Contact is limited with these guys apart from a few support staff who don’t know the rules.


They are refusing to pay me out and now have blocked me in discord. I have a payout cert, they have withdrawn the money from my account and now refusing to payout my shares.

Stay away
Date of experience: October 18, 2023"

---------------------------------------------

"
Seriously shambles of a firm
Seriously shambles of a firm, always judge a firm when it comes to payout. At first they offer nice discounts and their response time (takes a while) but you do get a response. I personally made 39 000 usd on my account, surprise surprise they then close my account and say its a trade violation. Bare in mind this firm prides itself on no restrictions, you can place 50 lot size on a 25k account but apparently placing 0.05 lots 50 times is an issue. They also ask you to not gamble and treat the account as your own funds, clearly there is a mix up here, 50 lots is gambling but allowed, 0.05 lots as a swing trader and day trader I and many other traders would agree is good risk management, but not here at this firm. Furthermore,I passed the challenge in the same way, traded the same way, and on their YouTube they have glorified scalpers for turning small $ into big $, but somehow now on my account there is an issue, they could of even had the courtesy to earn me first I mean we are talking about 39000 usd here, nope that didn't happen either. I should of gone with my gut and just taken a small payout, genuinely thought they would honor my payout and I would work with this firm in the long run, now being offered a fresh funded account and honestly I have lost all trust with them, I haven't even bothered with it, everyone be aware. I don't normally even leave reviews but after this experience I have to let you know and they can keep deleting my posts of discord, you can't hide from the truth.
Date of experience: August 23, 2023"
  • #24,488
  • Edited 2:44pm Oct 22, 2023 2:30pm | Edited 2:44pm
https://home.forexpropfirm.com/terms-of-service/

2 Step Challenge: The maximum drawdown is 12% on Evaluation #1 and Evaluation #2, while the maximum drawdown will be 10% and daily drawdown will be 5% on the funded account. If the trader reaches the drawdown limit, they will be disqualified instantly.

DISCRETIONARY

"No Abuse/Gambling (this is not a consistency rule but simply a common sense rule, we are looking for real money manager. Don’t do in the challenge what you wouldn’t do on your real live account or a client account, we want to see you treat this account exactly like you would treat a live account with real fund and potentially with up to $10,000,000 in capital.)"

"5.4.2.Furthermore, Customer shall not exploit the Services by performing trades without applying market standard risk management rules for trading on financial markets, this includes, among others, the following practices (i) opening substantially larger position sizes compared to Customer’s other trades, whether on this or any other Customer’s account, or (ii) opening substantially smaller or larger number of positions compared to Customer’s other trades, whether on this or any other Customer’s account. The Provider reserves the right to determine, at its own discretion, whether certain trades, practices, strategies or situations are Forbidden Trading Practices."


=> You are in devils hand when you want your legit payout with them if traded successfully.
For me that is like a scam from what I can read on their website.

Inserted Video

=> Jeez, more and more real pros or consistent traders are entering the prop space. Especially on the smaller and less reputable or less established firms. I cannot see how they can be profitable with their discounts. They must be playing on payouts and be scam artists denying them. Because I cannot match those numbers together so that this prop firm can be really profitable on b-booking model. Beware I would say. Do not trust them (not only this but most prop firms with similar statistics (!).
  • #24,489
  • Oct 22, 2023 2:55pm Oct 22, 2023 2:55pm
Quoting Bizziebee
Forexpropfirm is now recommended Offering a 2 phase time limit evaluation with no daily drawdown limit. Only max drawdown limit of 12%. Profit targets of 8% and 5% 90% profit split and bi-weekly payout. EA's allowed Price: $324 (100k account with discount) Downside: They use eightcap But you aint gonna find a better deal anywhere else folks
If you only look at the offer to recommend a prop you will have a lot of troubles.
  • #24,490
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:30pm Oct 22, 2023 3:30pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} If you only look at the offer to recommend a prop you will have a lot of troubles.
Yeah, but it is not only that. Have you seen that youtube video above about their recent (!) prop firm passing statistics ? This is very alarming too. They cannot survive. With they I mean all the props with similar statistics. If only the real pros are entering the prop firms there is no way on b-booking to come out profitable for the prop firm except they are playing dirty on payouts. But then the harming themselves in the mid term and of course longer run. It is simply not sustainable. The whole model is built on the 90/90/90 rule and not about that 10 years experienced and profitable traders are entering the prop space. This is like a hidden selection we are seeing now. That is the worst of all because on b-booking you are now competing against other profitable traders to get your payout. Of course not speaking about FTMO, but all the others I do not know, how this can work. Very alarming. I cannot say this in less harsh words. As I feared years earlier the crowd already got more intelligent!
  • #24,491
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:35pm Oct 22, 2023 3:35pm
Also I noticed there are more and more prop firms recently with more rules about what they say to us is forbidden trading style. That is a bad development and also a sign that the crowd got more professional or more probably the bad traders gave up and the more profitable traders are still in the game. Like a natural hidden selection.
  • #24,492
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:40pm Oct 22, 2023 3:40pm
Quoting Bizziebee
Forexpropfirm is now recommended Offering a 2 phase time limit evaluation with no daily drawdown limit. Only max drawdown limit of 12%. Profit targets of 8% and 5% 90% profit split and bi-weekly payout. EA's allowed Price: $324 (100k account with discount) Downside: They use eightcap But you aint gonna find a better deal anywhere else folks
"This isn't a consistency rule". It's a "we reserve the right to make up the rules when we need to fail you rule"

No Thanks!
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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #24,493
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:41pm Oct 22, 2023 3:41pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Jeez, more and more real pros or consistent traders are entering the prop space. Especially on the smaller and less reputable or less established firms. I cannot see how they can be profitable with their discounts. They must be playing on payouts and be scam artists denying them. Because I cannot match those numbers together so that this prop firm can be really profitable on b-booking model. Beware I would say. Do not trust them (not only this but most prop firms with similar statistics (!).
On what fact are you basing the assumption that pro traders are interested in those prop firms ? On what the guy in the video is claiming ?
Don't give up on your dreams. Keep sleeping.
  • #24,494
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:42pm Oct 22, 2023 3:42pm
If that development continues (=> higher passing rate of funded traders in percentage) there are 3 options for the (FX) prop firms:

1.) Higher challenge fees to compensate more and higher payouts from all the challenge takers. That makes it less attractive. There is a limit here. If the fees are higher than FTMO there is no real value anymore.

2.) More discretionary rules. Actually there are so many rules about what is forbidden, that even more and more rules do not stop this. Only discretionary rules with a lot of room and interpretation can solve this. With the intention then to deny more payouts. So the prop firm is still profitable and gets their desired return. Also changing rules without deadlines and valid into the past can overcome this. Imagine having a different set of rules every month, but now to make it really tricky to adapt, those new rules every month are also valid since the past month. Just with the intention to reduce payouts.

3.) Introducing trailing drawdowns instead of absolute drawdown. That will be game changer for us. As this makes it much more difficult to obtain any payouts.
  • #24,495
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:45pm Oct 22, 2023 3:45pm
Quoting Artcool
{quote} On what fact are you basing the assumption that pro traders are interested in those prop firms ? On what the guy in the video is claiming ?
It is simply because of the very high double digits in percentage on the passing rate of funded traders here. To obtain such high passing rate it is needed to have more experience as trader as I have it posted today earlier above. If more and more experienced traders with more years of experience are entering the prop space the chance is higher that they will succeed and be funded. So that passing rate stats goes up. You need experience to be consistent profitable. And that is included in the given stats on this video. Like the other post before on those stats at Funded Engineer. If that makes the new round, it seems now very probably. That the worse or bad trader left the game (not all of them but a good part of them) and now more and more real pros are entering those props. This is what those statistics are saying to us. Just compare those statistics with the MFF statistics a few years earlier what they had published. You see the difference ? Your conclusions then ? Anything different ?
  • #24,496
  • Oct 22, 2023 3:55pm Oct 22, 2023 3:55pm
Quoting TrAndy1
If that development continues there are 3 options for the (FX) prop firms. 1.) Higher challenge fees to compensate more and higher payouts from all the challenge takers. That makes it less attractive. There is a limit here. If the fees are higher than FTMO there is no real value anymore. 2.) Mor discretionary rules. Actually there are so many rules about what is forbidden, that even more and more rules do not stop this. Only discretionary rules with a lot of room and interpretation can solve this. With the intention then to deny more payouts. So...
Personally, I am optimistic. I see the future of those prop firms model handled directly by brokers who will be able to manage A-book traders more efficiently just like they do now (talking about decent brokers of course with long standing reputation).

We will get rid of those bucket shops run by teens or people who cannot even speak decent english, and clearly looking themselves for some quick bucks.

Of course, the conditions would not be the same and you would need to be really consistently profitable in order to pull money out of the market. If you are, they would put you in A-books with higher allocations and would also get their parts from your gains. That would be a win-win long-term solution.
Don't give up on your dreams. Keep sleeping.
  • #24,497
  • Edited 4:30pm Oct 22, 2023 4:00pm | Edited 4:30pm
To make it round and sound with me earlier presented statistics on being consistent profitable.

When there are like 10% to 15% of all challenge takers get funded. You can assume that like 4% to 5% of them (absolute) will get a payout. So relative spoken about something of one third of all funded traders should make it to the payout.

So now we know that based on what you trade, FX or non-FX, and how you trade, daytrading or swing trading, the statistics of being consistent profitable are:

FX (daytrading) + non-FX (daytrading) + FX (swing trading) + non-FX (swing trading) := (2% + 4% + 8% +12.5%) / 4 (assuming equal weights) = ~ 6.6%.

=> So now in average there should be around 6.6% consistent profitable traders in average of all traders.

=> If you compare that with those traders who can get a payout, there is some consistency of course required. So I would say compare those numbers.

=> If 4% to 5% of all challenge takers gets a payout after being funded it means compared to 6.6% of all consistent traders around on the globe:

That there are 60% to 75% real pros or consistent profitable traders or at least good profitable traders are entering the prop space now
(or are left now as most bad traders have given up already).

Of course if you assume that the average challenge trader is buying two challenges it still means that there are 30% to 37.5% of all traders consistent profitable ones, which is a huge number compare to all consistent traders on the globe (ca. 7% to 8%). You see that there is a hidden selection on prop firms, which are attracting more and more (over the last 2 years given on the MFF statistics) profitable traders.

=> So there are at least 4 to 5 times more consistent profitable traders trading on a FX prop firm than on normal FX brokers. That is what I mean with hidden (or evolving) selection.

=> This also means that those pros are competing on payout on those props. Because all is done over b-booking and cannot be changed because of almost no deposit, only the small challenge fee. So if more and more pros do not overrisk and concentrate on getting more payouts, the props business model can only collapse because there are too less bad traders constantly buying new challenges to feed the other profitable traders. That is why you need to have an eye on those (passing) statistics.
  • #24,498
  • Oct 22, 2023 4:03pm Oct 22, 2023 4:03pm
Quoting Artcool
{quote} Personally, I am optimistic. I see the future of those prop firms model handled directly by brokers who will be able to manage A-book traders more efficiently just like they do now (talking about decent brokers of course with long standing reputation). We will get rid of those bucket shops run by teens or people who cannot even speak decent english, and clearly looking themselves for some quick bucks. Of course, the conditions would not be the same and you would need to be really consistently profitable in order to pull money out of the...
I do not think so, because

1. A-booking is not easy even it is done with the brokers because there is no such initial deposit where you place 100% of all money on a broker compared to the prop.

2. If brokers would enter and do more collaborating with the props why then the have not done so until now ?

3. Regulation makes it more expensive (in time and cost involved). So those cost must be in future challenge fees reflected, which makes it less attractive for us.
  • #24,499
  • Oct 22, 2023 4:09pm Oct 22, 2023 4:09pm
There is simply no way to do a lot of A-booking as prop firm, with the given challenge fee. There is lot of more risk for the prop involved. You cannot compare this really to a broker where a trader is depositing 100% of all his money. Therefore most or over 99% or over 99.9% of all trading on prop will be done over b-booking like it is now. There cannot be a major change because of the almost zero deposit (only small challenge fee to compensate) on prop firms. So no reason to be optimistic here, as the business model cannot change a lot on props in the future. It is built in the prop challenge game of "extra" capital. So all will be financed from challenge fees too.
  • #24,500
  • Oct 22, 2023 4:28pm Oct 22, 2023 4:28pm
Quoting CableJ
Traders in general also don't back test realistically by at least trying to simulate a real market environment... If their system is still profitable factoring in all the above, they would stand a better chance of profitability live.
-Yes. Always best to trade with realistic conditions, if possible, even if that means trading a micro account on live. There is a free simulator tool by FX Blue, that allows traders to trade any historical period, as far back as the broker provides. I highly recommend it for all new traders, as it allows you to practice at any time, 24/7, and allows you to focus on specific time-blocks, if needed.
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