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  • #24,301
  • Oct 18, 2023 8:21am Oct 18, 2023 8:21am
I am still pro prop firms at the moment. And by prop firms, I mean only FTMO and 5ers (and maybe True Forex Fund) for now. Obviously with the current situation with prop firms, things can be upside down overnight. But for now that's my stance. The main reason would be, provided the person has a steady winning record, when he passes the challenge, he can get a buying power that's around 16-20 times his deposit/fee, and he can have the entire fee refunded too. (only if it's a pass...)

My current approach would be, only max out FTMO first, then get the 100k from 5ers, then TFF. If I still have money hanging around, money that I am comfortable to lose all, I would add more prop firms onto my list since the rest have their own pros and cons, and not as reliable as FTMO as their capital is relatively small.

I don't think tax is a factor that's big enough to stop people from going to prop firms. Yes, some countries have a heavy tax on forex gains. But those countries would usually have a heavy tax on your normal 9-5 job income too. Doesn't mean people should stop working 'cause of the heavy tax lol

(Also, I doubt most people can actually earn that much with prop firms like Andy lol...so it's prob the least of their concern for now...)

Just my 2 pips...
memento mori
  • #24,302
  • Oct 18, 2023 8:55am Oct 18, 2023 8:55am
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} I only trade DOW and NQ. CFD's on FTMO, Futures with TradeDay and my personal AMP account. If I were you, and being in the euro time zone, I would only trade DAX during london session. Theres plenty of movement during that session.
Do you know any kind of strategy/system how someone like me could trade the DAX during this time period?

I did backtest some reversal and breakout strategies I found online, focusing mainly on the DAX open but couldn’t find one of them leading to any kind of consistent profitable results for the periods I’ve tested.

best!
  • #24,303
  • Oct 18, 2023 8:58am Oct 18, 2023 8:58am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} I am not sure if we are talking about the same sales tax in UK. In UK, it's known as the 20% VAT. I have friends who are funded with FTMO and they live in UK. They told me FTMO charged them 20% VAT on top of the challenge fee, which will also be refunded only if the challenge has been passed. In that case, since FTMO is VAT-registered in UK, (They have to 'cause I imagine they mush have exceeded the threshold for revenue.) they won't have to pay any VAT for anything they purchase as long as it's counted as company's expense. The same reason...
We have Value Added Tax (VAT) which is chargeable on goods and services and paid directly to the tax man from the supplier, nothing to do with profits. For UK registered small companies its 19% on profits under 50k and 25% on profits above and also business rates tax on premises (unless there is relief).

So by withholding 20% of trader profits HMRC (our tax people) could fairly ask the question where is the tax payable on those revenues, to which the answer would be... squirm in seats, "there aren't any really, we just make profit from fees", at which point our friendly HMRC officer may just want to know more and invite another colleague from another agency... you can see where this is going and that's why setups like Bespoke will not be around to file their annual accounts due in a few months.
  • #24,304
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:12am Oct 18, 2023 9:12am
Quoting lddd
{quote} Do you know any kind of strategy/system how someone like me could trade the DAX during this time period? I did backtest some reversal and breakout strategies I found online, focusing mainly on the DAX open but couldn’t find one of them leading to any kind of consistent profitable results for the periods I’ve tested. best!
Look for divergences short term to the SP500 and Bund Future as underlying bond market. If they both diverge in the same direction as overlaying charts you could use them to trigger DAX entries. That should be profitable as the DAX in real moves with the US market and Bond markets of course too. So this is no spurious correlation. That is something you can trust on. Happy trading then.
  • #24,305
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:18am Oct 18, 2023 9:18am
The guy from funded engineer says that payment processors are taking more time to send money to props. This is another cash constrain for those already badly financially.
https://twitter.com/tradertristian/s...12984520307022
  • #24,306
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:23am Oct 18, 2023 9:23am
Quoting lddd
{quote} Do you know any kind of strategy/system how someone like me could trade the DAX during this time period? I did backtest some reversal and breakout strategies I found online, focusing mainly on the DAX open but couldn’t find one of them leading to any kind of consistent profitable results for the periods I’ve tested. best!
Don't trade it right at the open bell but some time later. eg. 30 or 45 min. Every exchange first settles all the pending orders and only then the actual traders come to play and set some trend for the day (or not).

Search for "The school run strategy" by Tom Hougaard - he backtested it on DAX and FTSE and trades it every day online on his Telegram channel
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #24,307
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:24am Oct 18, 2023 9:24am
Quoting Capablanca
The guy from funded engineer says that payment processors are taking more time to send money to props. This is another cash constrain for those already badly financially. https://twitter.com/tradertristian/s...12984520307022
Which payment processors ? Surely not all ones in the same manner. And that link shows also that it can take 30+ days holding time. Who as trader wants to wait more than 30 days for his payout ? Certaily not good for the prop business.
  • #24,308
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:36am Oct 18, 2023 9:36am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Which payment processors ? Surely not all ones in the same manner. And that link shows also that it can take 30+ days holding time. Who as trader wants to wait more than 30 days for his payout ? Certaily not good for the prop business.
This is not the time that we (traders) wait. This is the time that payments processors take, after receiving our money, to deliver it to props.
Props can't obviously reflect that in traders. A trader pays now and wants the account immediately. Props will receive the money only after X days.
  • #24,309
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:49am Oct 18, 2023 9:49am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Don't trade it right at the open bell but some time later. eg. 30 or 45 min. Every exchange first settles all the pending orders and only then the actual traders come to play and set some trend for the day (or not). Search for "The school run strategy" by Tom Hougaard - he backtested it on DAX and FTSE and trades it every day online on his Telegram channel
Thanks. I remember to have looked at a breakout strategy presented by Tom H. some time ago. It was about placing an order exactly at the open risking 9 points while targeting 6. That’s something different right?
  • #24,310
  • Oct 18, 2023 9:53am Oct 18, 2023 9:53am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Look for divergences short term to the SP500 and Bund Future as underlying bond market. If they both diverge in the same direction as overlaying charts you could use them to trigger DAX entries. That should be profitable as the DAX in real moves with the US market and Bond markets of course too. So this is no spurious correlation. That is something you can trust on. Happy trading then.
Thank you. Will look at it.
  • #24,311
  • Oct 18, 2023 10:02am Oct 18, 2023 10:02am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} This is not the time that we (traders) wait. This is the time that payments processors take, after receiving our money, to deliver it to props. Props can't obviously reflect that in traders. A trader pays now and wants the account immediately. Props will receive the money only after X days.
any payouts over those payment processors ? or are these not meant here ?
  • #24,312
  • Oct 18, 2023 10:18am Oct 18, 2023 10:18am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} any payouts over those payment processors ? or are these not meant here ?
I guess these are companies processing challenges purchases paid by debit or credit cards.
Taking the money today from traders and sending the money to props only after 30 days create a financial constrain for props because they need those fees to process payouts.
Those that are less financial strong may have troubles.
  • #24,313
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:01am Oct 18, 2023 11:01am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} I see no need for that because FTMO is the only prop left where you can sign up as business entity. All the other props you cannot do that.
I mean, in your opinion what european country is best to register a company for the trading profits, since you don't have to live there anyway?
Don't give up on your dreams. Keep sleeping.
  • #24,314
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:01am Oct 18, 2023 11:01am
Quoting lddd
{quote} Thanks. I remember to have looked at a breakout strategy presented by Tom H. some time ago. It was about placing an order exactly at the open risking 9 points while targeting 6. That’s something different right?
This would be different. He doesn't use TP, SL is not fixed but according to the setup, and it's definitelly not at open
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #24,315
  • Oct 18, 2023 11:16am Oct 18, 2023 11:16am
Quoting Artcool
{quote} I mean, in your opinion what european country is best to register a company for the trading profits, since you don't have to live there anyway?
It depends on what country you live, if you live in a 3rd country with no laws preventing having a company in another country and you live in your country thats ok, but if you live in portugal, france, germany ect you open a offshore company or a company in france and you live and are only owner in germany your company in france would be considered german company and still pay german tax rate
  • #24,316
  • Oct 18, 2023 12:25pm Oct 18, 2023 12:25pm
Quoting Fagin
(Possible Legal) Definition of Profit Split, what is defined as profit? There is all this conjecture about profit split, I ask what is it if we are using the words such as simulated? There is no profit and a company cannot pay itself with "simulated" profit therefore does it even exist? Or can a company indeed pay itself with the remaining split of unicorn droppings?
-Just like with digital slot machines, you pay a real fee to participate in a virtual game where you can earn simulated profits. If you win, you are paid out using real funds. If you lose, you lose your real funds.

With these remote props, though, it's more like poker... exchanging real money for poker chips and then trying to win more chips that other players put into the pot. Cash out the chips with real money etc..

No gambling license required.
  • #24,317
  • Oct 18, 2023 12:37pm Oct 18, 2023 12:37pm
Quoting Fagin
{quote} We have Value Added Tax (VAT) which is chargeable on goods and services and paid directly to the tax man from the supplier, nothing to do with profits. For UK registered small companies its 19% on profits under 50k and 25% on profits above and also business rates tax on premises (unless there is relief). So by withholding 20% of trader profits HMRC (our tax people) could fairly ask the question where is the tax payable on those revenues, to which the answer would be... squirm in seats, "there aren't any really, we just make profit from fees",...
I see. I guess it's good that they changed all the wordings to "simulated profit" or "virtual profit" then I wish tax would be virtual too...

Jokes aside, I really don't think any of these firms are paying business rate tax on their 20% profit cut...Umm I remember some time ago, someone posted a screenshot saying one firm defines the prop firm-client relationship as signal provider. And it's up to them if they would actually use that signal. I think 5%ers also states it somewhere that it's up to them if they actually A book anyone. Maybe that would save their ass when it comes to tax authorities?
memento mori
  • #24,318
  • Oct 18, 2023 1:02pm Oct 18, 2023 1:02pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} This would be different. He doesn't use TP, SL is not fixed but according to the setup, and it's definitelly not at open
https://tradertom.com/breakout-strat...-and-dow-open/
  • #24,319
  • Oct 18, 2023 1:08pm Oct 18, 2023 1:08pm
Hello fellow traders,

i have a question concerning the use of expert advisors on prop firm financed accounts.

I received an email from my prop firm's support (next step funded. No judging) that made me aware of the fact that I had to be careful with the trades my expert was making as he could potentially place the same trades as other people also using this EA. That this would lead to being considered as 3rd party copy trading, which is forbidden by most props firms. They have software that detects similar trades.

My question is: how to solve this problem, how to make the EA personal enough so that it doesn't make identical trades.

Thank you in advance for your help.
  • #24,320
  • Oct 18, 2023 1:22pm Oct 18, 2023 1:22pm
Quoting eliottberger
Hello fellow traders, i have a question concerning the use of expert advisors on prop firm financed accounts. I received an email from my prop firm's support (next step funded. No judging) that made me aware of the fact that I had to be careful with the trades my expert was making as he could potentially place the same trades as other people also using this EA. That this would lead to being considered as 3rd party copy trading, which is forbidden by most props firms. They have software that detects similar trades. My question is: how to solve this...
Don't use any public EAs, write your own or hire a programmer. It's the only way because many prop firms will require the source code of your EA anyway.
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