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  • #23,741
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:13am Oct 7, 2023 8:13am
My model would be "if I can't make money on your order flow, I will refund you and bid you good day".

How many people would cry about that?

Obviously if I were to do it, I Would stop posting on ff because commercial members are scammers. It would be inappropriate to discuss things I would have bias in if I did it.
  • #23,742
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:19am Oct 7, 2023 8:19am
Quoting Fagin
"Glow Node" for real? I wondered if we we talking about something other than prop shops then...
Spark plug for a Deisel engine?
every Saint has a past. Every Sinner has a Future
  • #23,743
  • Edited 8:35am Oct 7, 2023 8:19am | Edited 8:35am
Quoting Takisd
I have been contemplating opening a new style of prop firm. Full transparency including all the dealing elements (without exposing strategy) and transparency on what the company is making/losing from trading. The problem is in order to avoid the CFTC I Would have to ignore US citizens because the CFTC, regardless of virtual, sim or geo location, requires these entities to be registered with them. NO MATTER WHAT. The same goes for 5ers ftmo etc who arent in the US or Canada. That tidal wave is coming, you can see it on the horizon. In all you guys...
I would like it provided that you pay (the most important thing) and rules are super simple (preferable) or, at least, very clear upfront if you want to ban martingale, grid, "risky trading" or all that stuff. Clear definition of what is it and examples if necessary.

I would not care at all if you are demo, b-book, a-book, stp, selling trading data or whatever you decide.

All this said I think that you, as a prop owner, would be a prick treating some characters that populate the prop ecosystem. Specially the so called influencers. You definely have no patience for idiotes. -
  • #23,744
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:20am Oct 7, 2023 8:20am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I would like it provided that you pay (the most important thing) and rules are super simple (preferable) or, at least, very clear upfront if you want to ban martingale, grid, "risky trading" or all that stuff. Clear definition of what is it and examples if necessary. I would not care at all if you are demo, b-book, a-book, stp, selling trading data or whatever you decide. Al this said I think that you, as a prop owner, would be a prick treating some characters that populate the prop ecosystem. Specially the so called influencers. You definely...
I have been thinking about rules. I think that in order to actually be able to do something beyond bucketing I would need to ban news and I would need to set a limit on minimum open time of a trade.

It would upset the guys who follow those scammers like veeforex and habby and kojo but thats probably a good thing.
  • #23,745
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:25am Oct 7, 2023 8:25am
Quoting Takisd
My model would be "if I can't make money on your order flow, I will refund you and bid you good day". How many people would cry about that? Obviously if I were to do it, I Would stop posting on ff because commercial members are scammers. It would be inappropriate to discuss things I would have bias in if I did it.
That would be probably be a no go for me. Too much unclear if my workflow would be good for you.
I would think: this guy is not going to refund me if I lose my challenge. And if I pass he can tell me that my workflow is not worthwhile.
Therefore I would not waste my time and money with you if those are the terms.
  • #23,746
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:25am Oct 7, 2023 8:25am
Quoting Takisd
My model would be "if I can't make money on your order flow, I will refund you and bid you good day". How many people would cry about that? Obviously if I were to do it, I Would stop posting on ff because commercial members are scammers. It would be inappropriate to discuss things I would have bias in if I did it.
That would not harm my model. If they cannot A-book someone they can still b-booking it. All the prop firm needs to do is, to say how much is in the pot and how much out of it can be distributed in the next week or month, depending on how many challenges have been sold. So this would be like a casino or lottery, where the sum of payouts are depending on the incoming challenge fees. All needs to be transparence of course, as everyone needs to know how much the actual profit split would be in case (s)he is successful on funded accounts. That does not get in conflict with monetarizing orderflow or not.
  • #23,747
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:27am Oct 7, 2023 8:27am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} That would be probably be a no go for me. Too much unclear if my workflow would be good for you. I would think: this guy is not going to refund me if I lose my challenge. And if I pass he can tell me that my workflow is not worthwhile. Therefore I would not waste my time and money with you if those are the terms.
what if the parameters for how we can make money together was made clear before purchase?

Your trading if it fits inside this box, we can work together very well. If it fits in that box, then you can be live forever so long as you do not deviate outside that box. For example, if you are losing but still trading that way, what if you dont need to do the challenge again?
  • #23,748
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:29am Oct 7, 2023 8:29am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} That would be probably be a no go for me. Too much unclear if my workflow would be good for you. I would think: this guy is not going to refund me if I lose my challenge. And if I pass he can tell me that my workflow is not worthwhile. Therefore I would not waste my time and money with you if those are the terms.
Yes, there would be too much risk on the availability how smart the prop firm owner and his staff is, because making money out of orderflow depends very much on the skills. Most cannot do A-booking successfully and there is common magic formula how to do this. So in case you as trader had all the efforts to meet the profit goals, only that you get your money back after all the work. That would be pretty bad. Then you need to calculate the probability if the can use one his orderflow or not, to calculate the score, multiples of fees as value for the trader. That would be pretty bad.
  • #23,749
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:30am Oct 7, 2023 8:30am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Yes, there would be too much risk on the availability how smart the prop firm owner and his staff is, because making money out of orderflow depends very much on the skills. Most cannot do A-booking successfully and there is common magic formula how to do this. So in case you as trader had all the efforts to meet the profit goals, only that you get your money back after all the work. That would be pretty bad. Then you need to calculate the probability if the can use one his orderflow or not, to calculate the score, multiples of fees as value...
A booking is never successful, get off that boat. The only way to successfully A book is to not a-book anyone.
  • #23,750
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:30am Oct 7, 2023 8:30am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} what if the parameters for how we can make money together was made clear before purchase? Your trading if it fits inside this box, we can work together very well. If it fits in that box, then you can be live forever so long as you do not deviate outside that box. For example, if you are losing but still trading that way, what if you dont need to do the challenge again?
Those rules need to be clear and objective upfront. Any discretionary element would kill the trust of any serious trader. Because then they always could say, you do not get your payout because we cannot copy your traders. Too bad.
  • #23,751
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:31am Oct 7, 2023 8:31am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I have been thinking about rules. I think that in order to actually be able to do something beyond bucketing I would need to ban news and I would need to set a limit on minimum open time of a trade. It would upset the guys who follow those scammers like veeforex and habby and kojo but thats probably a good thing.
not opening in news +/- 2 minutes doesn't bother me at all. Maybe having an automatic thing integrated in platform preventing that, instead of waiting for the mistake and then failing the account. This would be a serious attitude.

Having a SL and TP hit during that news time has to be allowed. Even if you need to say "the trades that TP or Sl during news have to be opened at lelast 30 minutes before".

Regarding the minimum time to have the trade opened that's fine, provided that you accommodate mistakes when we close immediately due to an error. Some sort of weekly count that resets, allowing for 2 weekly mistakes, for example.
  • #23,752
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:33am Oct 7, 2023 8:33am
Quoting TrAndy1
The real sustainable business model is, when they have full transparency of all incoming and outgoing payments. They need to set a fixed percentage of all incoming challenge fees for any outgoing payouts. So in case they get less challenge fees the payout percentage is lower and when they have more customers and more fees taken then they can afford higher percentage payouts. All transparent published anytime from the prop firm. So everyone knows how much is in the pot and how much out of it, it will be distributed among the successful traders. That...
This can be interesting...Or the payout percentage/profit split concept can be a whole other thing. So there are two groups, the winners and the losers. Losers are the ones who paid for the challenges and failed and the money goes into a bucket. Every month, the prop firm only takes a small percentage of the entire bucket. The rest of the bucket is divided proportionally, according to the size of the gains of each winner in their account. So in theory, if the winner makes 5k in the simulated account that month, the money that he actually receives, can be either more or less than that, depending on how many losers there are in that month.

And everything is transparent. This way, the prop firm will always make a profit, never collapses, and is just a middle man. The obvious downside would be...the winner never knows the exact figure he's getting in that month.
memento mori
  • #23,753
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:35am Oct 7, 2023 8:35am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} not opening in news +/- 2 minutes doesn't bother me at all. Maybe having an automatic thing integrated in platform preventing that, instead of waiting for the mistake and then failing the account. This would be a serious attitude. Having a SL and TP hit during that news time has to be allowed. Even if you need to say "the trades that TP or Sl during news have to be opened at lelast 30 minutes before". Regarding the minimum time to have the trade opened that's fine, provided that you accommodate mistakes when we close immediately due to an...
What I do not like is, that you as trader can make so many errors, and then get denied your payout. It should be all built-in the platform. For example auto-closing all your trades when daily loss limit is reached, without saying that you have violated anything. Also no news trading should be realized in that way, that no new orders can be opened on the Metatrader platform for limited time span and so on. So basically you can concentrate on trading and do not need to bother on breaking any rules, because you cannot, except max. overall loss. That would be in favor of all traders.

E.g. to prevent HFT trading one cannot close his trades on Metatrader when a certain minimum holding time is not passed. That could be also built-in into Metatrader etc.
  • #23,754
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:35am Oct 7, 2023 8:35am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} what if the parameters for how we can make money together was made clear before purchase? Your trading if it fits inside this box, we can work together very well. If it fits in that box, then you can be live forever so long as you do not deviate outside that box. For example, if you are losing but still trading that way, what if you dont need to do the challenge again?
Difficult to reply in abstract but for the flow to be interesting for you it would demand a truck of rules difficult to respect, no ?
  • #23,755
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:36am Oct 7, 2023 8:36am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} This can be interesting...Or the payout percentage/profit split concept can be a whole other thing. So there are two groups, the winners and the losers. Losers are the ones who paid for the challenges and failed and the money goes into a bucket. Every month, the prop firm only takes a small percentage of the entire bucket. The rest of the bucket is divided proportionally, according to the size of the gains of each winner in their account. So in theory, if the winner makes 5k in the simulated account that month, the money that he actually...
Exactly.
  • #23,756
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:37am Oct 7, 2023 8:37am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Difficult to reply in abstract but for the flow to be interesting for you it would demand a truck of rules difficult to respect, no ?
What about this then.

So in the dashboard it reports to you if we are making money on your flow, on a W/W basis and also logs if each week the company made money on you or not.

If for 3 months over 50% of the time the company doesn't they pay you out and also say sorry but thanks?
  • #23,757
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:39am Oct 7, 2023 8:39am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} This can be interesting...Or the payout percentage/profit split concept can be a whole other thing. So there are two groups, the winners and the losers. Losers are the ones who paid for the challenges and failed and the money goes into a bucket. Every month, the prop firm only takes a small percentage of the entire bucket. The rest of the bucket is divided proportionally, according to the size of the gains of each winner in their account. So in theory, if the winner makes 5k in the simulated account that month, the money that he actually...
You forget 1 thing, the cost of doing business. It will be far greater than the revenue received if you use this distribution model.

The reason why the prop space as is has an expiry date is because in has to be greater than out. External revenue sources are the only means of fixing that.
  • #23,758
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:40am Oct 7, 2023 8:40am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} What about this then. So in the dashboard it reports to you if we are making money on your flow, on a W/W basis and also logs if each week the company made money on you or not. If for 3 months over 50% of the time the company doesn't they pay you out and also say sorry but thanks?
You say I should forget A-booking but you say orderflow should be the criteria for the prop. How do you mean this ? Because it means the when orderflow can be used they can make money with A-booking the trades or what do you mean here for the orderflow ?
  • #23,759
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:42am Oct 7, 2023 8:42am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} You forget 1 thing, the cost of doing business. It will be far greater than the revenue received if you use this distribution model. The reason why the prop space as is has an expiry date is because in has to be greater than out. External revenue sources are the only means of fixing that.
You are not right. FTMO is not selling their trade data and have no external revenues except the money incoming from challenge fees. And it works for them. You see ?
  • #23,760
  • Oct 7, 2023 8:43am Oct 7, 2023 8:43am
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You say I should forget A-booking but you say orderflow should be the criteria for the prop. How do you mean this ? Because it means the when orderflow can be used they can make money with A-booking the trades or what do you mean here for the orderflow ?
There are many order flow strategies that are not a book. A book is copying a traders trade back to back.

What if you have behavioral analysis to do other things to the trade in order to make money. For example, what if you net and hedge the entire db? Scalper flow is useless in this instance, but if you have plenty of regular flow you can effectively make more money than the winning traders will make. It requires you to accurately shape the flow that is produced and have a strategy around it.

I have spent the last 6ish months working on this, i dont have a confirmed working solution just a theorized one but to get a working solution you need data and lots of it over many cycles.
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