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  • #21,241
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:30pm Sep 8, 2023 3:30pm
Quoting Tim_isoara
{quote} Takisd strike again. MFF is innocent, is number 1, it's a conspiracy. Yes of course....
Read the document mate. Nice emojis btw.
  • #21,242
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:33pm Sep 8, 2023 3:33pm
Quoting Takisd
So a misleading marketing slap, big fine like 2 mill and continuing business with a lot of disclosures.
-I will be very surprised if this happens, but it would be great, if so. I think, regulation in this space can be a good thing, but if history teaches us anything, it is that regulators in this space are not really keen on following the original paradigm and the purpose and agenda has seemingly mutated into something entirely different.
  • #21,243
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:38pm Sep 8, 2023 3:38pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Read the document mate. Nice emojis btw.
Just read???Tip for you...You must to understand the document...but...must to have legal knowledge...
Good luck.
  • #21,244
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:40pm Sep 8, 2023 3:40pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I will be very surprised if this happens, but it would be great, if so. I think, regulation in this space can be a good thing, but if history teaches us anything, it is that regulators in this space are not really keen on following the original paradigm and the purpose and agenda has seemingly mutated into something entirely different.
Who knows, maybe we will soon see Oanda offering prop accounts in US. Slim change that any of the current US based props would get a license.
  • #21,245
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:41pm Sep 8, 2023 3:41pm
Why always the poking and prodding in this thread? I wonder if it is possible to share opinions without making things personal...
  • #21,246
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:47pm Sep 8, 2023 3:47pm
Quoting Nsak3y
Why always the poking and prodding in this thread? I wonder if it is possible to share opinions without making things personal...
A good start would be to keep politics out of this thread.
  • #21,247
  • Sep 8, 2023 3:50pm Sep 8, 2023 3:50pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I will be very surprised if this happens, but it would be great, if so. I think, regulation in this space can be a good thing, but if history teaches us anything, it is that regulators in this space are not really keen on following the original paradigm and the purpose and agenda has seemingly mutated into something entirely different.
Call me cynical but despite MFF case I hope regulation doesn't come. Why ?

Because if we turn this into a real prop business, with real money, then online props, as we know them, will simply disappear. The real props that accept traders trading real money, have very strict conditions in terms of risk management, low pay % in the beginning, charge costs of infrastructure, don't allow second chances and traders need to have certifications.

If, on the other hand, we turn this into a videogame industry (which is in fact what it is now) IMO it's impossible for regulation to proper regulate the parameters of this videogame (we saw how tough and complicate that is through the internal conversations in the case).
The videogame is too complex with so many different trading styles (very conservative, very aggressive, scalpers, swings, news traders, EAs, bots, etc. - each of them need different risk/videogame parameters).
  • #21,248
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:26pm Sep 8, 2023 4:26pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Call me cynical but despite MFF case I hope regulation doesn't come. Why ? Because if we turn this into a real prop business, with real money, then online props, as we know them, will simply disappear. The real props that accept traders trading real money, have very strict conditions in terms of risk management, low pay % in the beginning, charge costs of infrastructure, don't allow second chances and traders need to have certifications. If, on the other hand, we turn this into a videogame industry (which is in fact what it is now) IMO it's...
I am not muslim, but you are describing gambling and that will eliminate a very large portion of the traders (muslims) for these prop firms, and potentially lower their viability. Also, it requires a different license and should it be defined as such, i doubt any of these firms will survive gaming industry licenses.

I am good with disclosures like - not all traders will have their trades passed to the market but some will, you will be informed if your trades are going to the market. Or if the order flow matter is confirmed - transparent disclosure of quarterly returns from order flow. Maybe even balance sheet disclosures?

Ultimately, an audited balance sheet would show a lot of the disclosures people are looking for. A yearly fee and capital requirements? That might be good too. Making it harder to start a prop firm is probably a better route to take.

Knowing the CFTC in my limited capacity, I think that this might be tthe end of the challenge model, at least to US citizens.
  • #21,249
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:26pm Sep 8, 2023 4:26pm
Also, tradernok finally posted the date change.
  • #21,250
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:39pm Sep 8, 2023 4:39pm
Quoting Takisd
not all traders will have their trades passed to the market but some will, you will be informed if your trades are going to the market. Or if the order flow matter is confirmed - transparent disclosure of quarterly returns from order flow.
IMO the main problem is not if the traders order is A or B-booked. People also suffer that in brokers.

The main problem is the execution slippage. Differentiate that according with the trading style is the difficult thing. Someone trading 50 lots has to have a different treatment from someone dealing with 0.1 lot. Or trading news, for example.

It's difficult to do that even behind curtains (as we see in the internal conversations of MFF). I can't even imagine how this could be written in an official disclaimer, visible to everyone (and how to implement it in a known and structure way without doubts).
  • #21,251
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:41pm Sep 8, 2023 4:41pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} IMO the main problem is not if the traders order is A or B-booked. People also suffer that in brokers. The main problem is the execution slippage. Differentiate that according with the trading style is the difficult thing. Someone trading 50 lots has to have a different treatment from someone dealing with 0.1 lot. Or trading news, for example. It's difficult to do that even behind curtains (as we see in the internal conversations of MFF). I can't even imagine how this could be written in an official disclaimer, visible to everyone (and how...
Do you remember their VWAP announcement in discord? It was in January i think or february.

This resolves the profile issue, as it simulates real life liquidity. Its likely worse than the profiles at least the ones in the emails that are in this case. Perhaps disclosure of that ? VWAP system simulates real life liquidity which may lead to slippage, please see X slippage blog (they had one on their site already) on how to lower your chances of getting slippage.
  • #21,252
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:49pm Sep 8, 2023 4:49pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Do you remember their VWAP announcement in discord? It was in January i think or february. This resolves the profile issue, as it simulates real life liquidity. Its likely worse than the profiles at least the ones in the emails that are in this case. Perhaps disclosure of that ? VWAP system simulates real life liquidity which may lead to slippage, please see X slippage blog (they had one on their site already) on how to lower your chances of getting slippage.
Yep, that would be a good solution, specially if that is externally audited with reliable and detailed order flow history. A bit difficult, though, when the market is not centralized as forex. A pool of LPs would have to be identified (certified ?) and be reliable themselves.
  • #21,253
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:51pm Sep 8, 2023 4:51pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} This was not involving surgetrader directly. It was the husband of the founder (with her involvement) that was caught in a ponzi scheme: https://eu.naplesnews.com/story/news...e/70484559007/ Anyway, if someone is caught in a (real) ponzi scheme I would say it's not the smartest thing to trust their prop.
Yet, THEY (Surge) are still operating. Pretty comical.
  • #21,254
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:52pm Sep 8, 2023 4:52pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} My speculation is, fraud stuff goes away as its easily disprovable (contradicting statements and all) settlement on marketing elements not broker dealer, as i see broker dealer being hard to stick given there is no custodian and no investors. So a misleading marketing slap, big fine like 2 mill and continuing business with a lot of disclosures.
  • #21,255
  • Sep 8, 2023 4:55pm Sep 8, 2023 4:55pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Yep, that would be a good solution, specially if that is externally audited with reliable and detailed order flow history. A bit difficult, though, when the market is not centralized as forex. A pool of LPs would have to be identified (certified ?) and be reliable themselves.
If you have an audited line on revenue from trading i dont think it needs to provide a statement. Providing a statement would be reverse engineered and the strategy stolen in a week.
  • #21,256
  • Sep 8, 2023 6:33pm Sep 8, 2023 6:33pm
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} The MFF profit numbers are eye openers for many off shore brokers and other entrepreneurs leading to more similar funding solutions being offered. Don't under estimate the power of greed. However, US citizens might be having a bit hard time for finding feasible funding options.
I would agree 100 % to it.

It is foolish to assume that prop firm business will die, the power of greed will win.

Remodelled business will emerge.
Intraday only.
  • #21,257
  • Sep 8, 2023 6:36pm Sep 8, 2023 6:36pm
Quoting Capablanca
{image} USA, Canada, European Union and UK account for pretty much everything in the prop world.
Not necessarily.

The earlier change by US regulators affected the brokers within their jurisdiction.

Like leverage reduction, FIFO rules etc.
Intraday only.
  • #21,258
  • Sep 8, 2023 6:52pm Sep 8, 2023 6:52pm
Quoting Capablanca
Call me cynical but despite MFF case I hope regulation doesn't come.
-I cannot speak about gamification. I expect that gambling would have its own set of problems to deal with. In a perfect world, I would hope for something new... a kind of balance, I suppose, but that will never happen. It's hard for certain groups to deviate from old ideas, even when everything is new and different. We can already see this playing out with cryptocurrency.
  • #21,259
  • Sep 8, 2023 6:53pm Sep 8, 2023 6:53pm
Quoting Takisd
I am good with disclosures
-Disclosures are good. So is transparency, annual auditing etc.. But what we deem as appropriate is moot and nothing close to reality, unfortunately.
  • #21,260
  • Sep 8, 2023 6:56pm Sep 8, 2023 6:56pm
Quoting Takisd
VWAP ... This resolves the profile issue, as it simulates real life liquidity.
-I wonder how this would be implemented in terms of liquidity. Would this data be pulled from a particular broker, then? It is beyond my understanding, admittedly.
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