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  • #21,001
  • Sep 7, 2023 3:56am Sep 7, 2023 3:56am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Oh, Deel is definitely a legit and useful business all over the world, no doubts. Not what I meant. I was thinking that despite being a legit business if they can be hit, somehow, by all this mess (which may make them, as precautious measure, to stop working with props very soon, which would make everyone life more difficult). I didn't get your point, though, regarding the example of the 600K guy that received the payouts through Deel. What's about him ?
i think he means that the traders with large payouts thro Deel are afraid of having to give back the money, i doubt that s the case
  • #21,002
  • Sep 7, 2023 4:09am Sep 7, 2023 4:09am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} i think he means that the traders with large payouts thro Deel are afraid of having to give back the money, i doubt that s the case
Oh, I see. Not a very comfortable position for that guy right now.
  • #21,003
  • Sep 7, 2023 4:29am Sep 7, 2023 4:29am
Yes, if Deel were to get caught up in this and MFF is unsuccessful, its possible some transactions would reverse but not likely. But the pressure is there, and its likely the desired outcome of the way this was done.
  • #21,004
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:06am Sep 7, 2023 5:06am
Quoting Takisd
Yes, if Deel were to get caught up in this and MFF is unsuccessful, its possible some transactions would reverse but not likely. But the pressure is there, and its likely the desired outcome of the way this was done.
From what i know, once the money have exchanged hands, in tis case Murtuza paying the traders, and then the traders spending that money and so on, only 1 that has to pay back would be the 1 that commited the fraud, embezzelment etc. Unless that money was fake in which case they ll try and track to get the bills out of the circulation. the contracter hired to do a job has no way of knowing if the money he earned came from fraudulent means etc. let s imagine that the house Murtuza bought wasn t bought but built from scratch. do u think that the CFTC will go after the contracter who built it? unless they prove they were in cohoots, which isn t our case as traders, it ends there. Probably if he has the money that the CTFC claims are reimbursable he ll need to pay them back, or face jail time.
Ofc all this is speculation, but we as traders can sue as well if some1 asks for the profits we ve earned.
  • #21,005
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:10am Sep 7, 2023 5:10am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} From what i know, once the money have exchanged hands, in tis case Murtuza paying the traders, and then the traders spending that money and so on, only 1 that has to pay back would be the 1 that commited the fraud, embezzelment etc. Unless that money was fake in which case they ll try and track to get the bills out of the circulation. the contracter hired to do a job has no way of knowing if the money he earned from doing a job came from fraudulent means etc. let s imagine that the house Murtuza bought wasn t bought but built from scratch....
Right, thats why i said some transactions. For example, perhaps paypal transactions? Or various other claimable transactions that weren't used to build a house. Staff salaries perhaps? Vendors? Depends how far you want to go but likely we will start seeing settlement conversations pretty soon.
  • #21,006
  • Edited 5:37am Sep 7, 2023 5:18am | Edited 5:37am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Right, thats why i said some transactions. For example, perhaps paypal transactions? Or various other claimable transactions that weren't used to build a house. Staff salaries perhaps? Vendors? Depends how far you want to go but likely we will start seeing settlement conversations pretty soon.
Staff salaries i doubt it. they d have 2 prove they were in the know in order for that to happen. It would be best for all involved and us traders as well, if they d settle.
Get some closure, see what are the repercussions and move on. if they drag this out till election day, then we know what s this really about lol

Canada and USA were landmarks till not so long ago known for freedom of speech, land of the free, job oportunities and so on. real democracies built mostly by foreigners (immigrants). Now both countries are in the race for most toxic enviroments in the so called free world. Unless people wake up and remove the cancer at the top, it s gonna get tougher and tougher.
  • #21,007
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:25am Sep 7, 2023 5:25am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} Staff salaries i doubt it. they d have 2 prove they were in the know in order for that to happen. It would be best for all involved and us traders as well, if they d settle. Get some closure, see what are the repercussions and move on. if they drag this out till election day, then we know what s this really about lol
I think that IF they have started requesting more data etc, there will be so much of it that the settlement talks will start pretty fast. Because the resources required to go through potentially billions of lines of data accurately is a lot its not as simple as parsing it, you have to actually find something specific and because of markets, the data is likely massively unbalanced, some of it is probably missing due to removal of data from servers and things like that making any conclusion a bit murky.

The lawyers they have are proper bullies as well so its likely there is a lot of pressure on all sides in this one. Settlement without closure of business is likely best way out for everyone but to what extent they want the industry gone is a question mark.

Today was saw easton tech get a service cancelled because of this which is a bunch of prop firms owned by Angelo and likely he has more to worry about when the word ponzi is thrown around if money from company A was used to do payouts of company B or if money from company A was used as investor capital to prop up company B because of no positive revenue. Its very concerning.
  • #21,008
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:34am Sep 7, 2023 5:34am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} Unless people wake up and remove the cancer at the top, it s gonna get tougher and tougher.
i should ve wrote unless people WOKE up
  • #21,009
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:39am Sep 7, 2023 5:39am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Right, thats why i said some transactions. For example, perhaps paypal transactions? Or various other claimable transactions that weren't used to build a house. Staff salaries perhaps? Vendors? Depends how far you want to go but likely we will start seeing settlement conversations pretty soon.
Salaries, vendors, suppliers I doubt.

If ever comes to reimburses this would be based in fraud and/or ponzi allegations. In that case the logic would be to follow what happened in madoff.

In simple terms they see that MFF received 300M from challenges that need to be returned. Operation expenses were, for example, 50M.
250M remains. Then each person is entitled to 83% of what they paid for challenges (250/300).
So, if people paid 1000 for challenges and receive nothing, they would get 833
I people paid 1000 and received 2000, they would have to return 1.167

I don't think is is humanly possible to do. It's hundreds of thousands of people all over the world.
  • #21,010
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:40am Sep 7, 2023 5:40am
Anyway, apparently Deel invoices are part of the evidence according with the guy from twitter. He says that Deel was actively cooperating with authorities )and not just for MFF).
https://twitter.com/TraderNOK/status...69785125228584

Not sure how much of that is true but right now it wouldn't surprise me. It seems that investigation started at the end of last year
  • #21,011
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:41am Sep 7, 2023 5:41am
Quoting Expo33
Just bought a 15K two-phase with FXIFY for $60 (40% off using "SOCIAL15K" only for 15K accounts). I like the value. Pass and get $1500 in drawdown for $60. For all other challenges use code "Sep20" for 20% off.
Hi Expo33,
Would you kindly keep us updated on your progress with this?
  • #21,012
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:43am Sep 7, 2023 5:43am
Quoting Capablanca
Anyway, apparently Deel invoices are part of the evidence according with the guy from twitter. He says that Deel was actively cooperating with authorities )and not just for MFF). https://twitter.com/TraderNOK/status...69785125228584 Not sure how much of that is true but right now it wouldn't surprise me. It seems that investigation started at the end of last year
Evidence for the defendant u mean? cos all that shows is MFF paying off the profit split to traders?
  • #21,013
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:44am Sep 7, 2023 5:44am
I can't access the full article but it seems that Deel is on the spotlights
How Deel Became Payout Provider for Prop Trading Firms, Including Site Frozen by CFTC
  • #21,014
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:45am Sep 7, 2023 5:45am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} Evidence for the defendant u mean? cos all that shows is MFF paying off the profit split to traders?
I understood the other way: being part of accusation to show this was a ponzi.
Edit: is part of accusation, as far as the twitter guy says
  • #21,015
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:45am Sep 7, 2023 5:45am
Deel is fairly straight forward i think. Contracts for jurisdictions - payments.

There could be something about facilitating crypto payments maybe if you want to purposely hurt them but other than that i don't see much about deel that could incriminate or otherwise.
  • #21,016
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:50am Sep 7, 2023 5:50am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} Evidence for the defendant u mean? cos all that shows is MFF paying off the profit split to traders?
unless they were using Deel for other payments as well, i just don t see how would that discredit MFF. Maybe they want to force Dells hand to not do bussiness with prop firms anymore.
  • #21,017
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:52am Sep 7, 2023 5:52am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} unless they were using Deel to for other payments as well, i just don see how would that discredit MFF. Maybe they want to force Dells hand to not do bussiness with prop firms anymore.
I would not be surprised that this is the ultimate reason.

Apparently it's not just Deel invoices, it's also Deel contracts.
https://twitter.com/TraderNOK/status...31503306125683

I guess this is thousands of stuff.
  • #21,018
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:54am Sep 7, 2023 5:54am
Its likely staff contracts more than the individual ones because individual contracts at least with MFF were separate.
  • #21,019
  • Sep 7, 2023 5:56am Sep 7, 2023 5:56am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I would not be surprised that this is the ultimate reason. Apparently it's not just Deel invoices, it's also Deel contracts. https://twitter.com/TraderNOK/status...31503306125683 I guess this is thousands of stuff.
Cos they know they can t come out and tell people outright to not sign up or use some services just cos they say so, so they go after the payment providers i guess.
But if u think things thro, Deel is just another contracter, so unless they did something shady, the regulators have no ground . Moreover, who is spreading this info?
it seems to me that the CFTC is more interested to win in the court of public opinion rather then the courthouse/
  • #21,020
  • Sep 7, 2023 6:04am Sep 7, 2023 6:04am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} Cos they know they can t come out and tell people outright to not sign up or use some services just cos they say so, so they go after the payment providers i guess. But if u think things thro, Deel is just another contracter, so unless they did something shady, the regulators have no ground . Moreover, who is spreading this info? it seems to me that the CFTC is more interested to win in the court of public opinion rather then the courthouse/
Most elements are public record, but some things this nok guy is saying is not. He also is selectively leaking to build a narrative it appears after watching his time line.
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