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  • #17,221
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:56pm Jun 28, 2023 4:56pm
Quoting pipmaster77
Right, but diverifying risk in this space is simple ... so once again, figuring out the how's and why's to me is a complete waste of brain power.
-To be fair, it is not only a matter of diversification for risk-mitigation, and I suspect that there is more to be learned than just the how's and why's.
  • #17,222
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:58pm Jun 28, 2023 4:58pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The funny thing is that despite this being discussed here, over and over again, there are no solid conclusions. And I believe this topic has an above average knowledge and experience in props and also people with good analytic skills. Not discouraging the discussion at all. Far from that, this is the right place. I just think we won't reach a conclusion again.
I guess that's my point, it's a good discussion, but we know there is no conclusion. We will never know, it's a shady, shady industry. At best, the firms are bending the truth, at worst, they are outright lying.
  • #17,223
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:01pm Jun 28, 2023 5:01pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I do not look at like that. I see it as a precautionary warning to traders to not trade around big news events. And although I dislike having these kinds of restrictions on my trading, I do think that there is a difference between good practices and bad practices. For example, forcing traders to not execute trades during big news events can help to create good habits, even if the general idea is to try to trip up traders. At the very least, it will force traders to simply be more aware of such news events, which will ultimately make them...
So a trader with a 0.5% stop loss during news (even if he gets slipped double his s/l it's 1.0) is bad, but the yolo trader who trades 5 minutes after the news with the entire account on the line is good? The hypocricy in these firms is the most irritating thing to me as it is a straight up insult to our intelligence.
  • #17,224
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:03pm Jun 28, 2023 5:03pm
Quoting Capablanca
The funny thing is that despite this being discussed here, over and over again, there are no solid conclusions. ... I just think we won't reach a conclusion again.
-Perhaps. But what are we talking about, exactly? A-booking traders? This was mostly discussed in the past 24-hours, based on an interview with CEO of TFTP. He revealed a lot, in my opinion. He is not the only one that has given insights. So, perhaps there is more to come and conclusions are possible.

Oftentimes, when I am unsure of something, I will mention it, and someone will educate me. This is useful and beneficial. I cannot assume that everyone is clueless like me.

Speculation in this format can be good as it allows for brainstorming new ideas and possibilities with like-minded people. Maybe some here do not like it. But, to each their own. As long as we are on-topic, then I it should be allowed.
  • #17,225
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:06pm Jun 28, 2023 5:06pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I do not look at like that. I see it as a precautionary warning to traders to not trade around big news events. And although I dislike having these kinds of restrictions on my trading, I do think that there is a difference between good practices and bad practices. For example, forcing traders to not execute trades during big news events can help to create good habits, even if the general idea is to try to trip up traders. At the very least, it will force traders to simply be more aware of such news events, which will ultimately make them...
We agree in disagreeing. There's no harm in having a 0.5% SL hit at that time or a TP which is coming from 2 days ago and simply got too close to the TP, close to the news time. It's not necessarily a sign of bad trading IMO.

On the news one the funnier is when Powell or Lagarde are speaking. For the first 2 minutes, which barely covers the % 20% of their initial statement, we can't trade. Then for the remaining 8 or 10 minutes and Q&A from newspapers that's not a problem, although the ticker is still crazy.
  • #17,226
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:07pm Jun 28, 2023 5:07pm
Quoting pipmaster77
So a trader with a 0.5% stop loss during news (even if he gets slipped double his s/l it's 1.0) is bad, but the yolo trader who trades 5 minutes after the news with the entire account on the line is good? The hypocricy in these firms is the most irritating thing to me as it is a straight up insult to our intelligence.
-Oh no no. I am not at all claiming that these firms are not shady hypocrites. I am simply stating that some practices may prove beneficial while others are just nonsensical.

Even though I do not agree with most restrictions, I do see how some can be beneficial to traders, even if the reasoning and purpose for the restrictions is something totally nefarious and crappy.

But forcing traders to take whole positions in lieu of breaking them up into smaller sizes is just scammy hogwash.
  • #17,227
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:09pm Jun 28, 2023 5:09pm
Quoting Capablanca
We agree in disagreeing. There's no harm in having a 0.5% SL hit at that time or a TP which is coming from 2 days ago and simply got too close to the TP, close to the news time. It's not necessarily a sign of bad trading IMO.
-I am not saying that.
  • #17,228
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:17pm Jun 28, 2023 5:17pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Oh no no. I am not at all claiming that these firms are not shady hypocrites. I am simply stating that some practices may prove beneficial while others are just nonsensical. Even though I do not agree with most restrictions, I do see how some can be beneficial to traders, even if the reasoning and purpose for the restrictions is something totally nefarious and crappy. But forcing traders to take whole positions in lieu of breaking them up into smaller sizes is just scammy hogwash.
But then, if we follow you logic of thought, the ideal rules would be Finotive + no news from 5ers + no soft martingale of Bespoke. All these can be argued to be good for discipline and good habits.

- SL in all order in 60 seconds
- No more than 50% DD in a single instrument
- No trading news +/- 2minutes within news
- Not allowed to add to a losing position more lots than the last one

Now... if a prop had all this they would be hated.

And to be honest, a bit brutal even, not everybody needs the same whip to be disciplined. I don't need any rules to take care of my risk and I would like not to pay with very strict rules for someone else indiscipline.

Otherwise it's like preventing me from buying American ETFs just because some illiterates need to be protected from themselves because they don't have a clue where they are putting their money on.
  • #17,229
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:23pm Jun 28, 2023 5:23pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The funny thing is that despite this being discussed here, over and over again, there are no solid conclusions. And I believe this topic has an above average knowledge and experience in props and also people with good analytic skills. Not discouraging the discussion at all. Far from that, this is the right place. I just think we won't reach a conclusion again.
I have given the conclusion 100 times.

You can't a-book retail traders. These firms might A book only as risk mitigation but they do not make money from a-book. A firm making money from an a-book is a magical fantasy land idea because the traders aren't depositing 300k for their 300k account. Its diminishing returns and random walk means that you will lose 9.5 times out of 10 on the a-book at some point. A-book for prop firms is deciding who you dont want to lose more than max drawdown on and hedging that risk. If the profit split was reversed then it would be more possible but its not.

The one thing I agree with Blake and Angelo on is that the data has value, but I also am pretty certain they dont know what that means. I have spent the last 2 weeks messing with models trying to fit it to a "retail live" dataset, best I have come up with so far is 8$/million return on the order flow of FX pairs and 15/million on xau/usd but massive loss on CFD's due to live market conditions being way worse than what anyone offers for lots above 10. Which ads another truth, that is without the ability to chop and change your liquidity, you cannot do much more than A and B because a lot of the alpha comes from the ability to have buy/sell side feeds.

When people say "they make money on the a-book of good consistent traders" its cringe. Its an assumption that there is this massive pool of traders somewhere that you can simply earn money from who have no emotions, sound risk management and an edge that works in all market conditions. Its quite an arrogant statement to make. We should all let go of that idea and focus on some sort of revenue generation model outside of sales of challenges.

If there is one model that could be a-booked profitably its something like MFF's accelerated or 5ers original model due to having almost no risk. The challenge model is not a-bookable in a profitable way because the equity is so high, leverage is so high and the traders are using both equity and leverage to trade. And finally the trader numbers are so large that its impossible to accurately pick out people who make profit. And if you say "oh if they make 3 payouts do it", you need to understand that statistically most of those 3 payout people will lose before the next payout so it just gets worse over time not better.

It seems sometimes that retail traders are just in a permanent state of denial. We know what the models are, we are here taking advantage of them. If they were anything more they wouldn't be so rewarding.
  • #17,230
  • Jun 28, 2023 5:26pm Jun 28, 2023 5:26pm
Also what happened to that "we will pay you a salary" prop firm?
  • #17,231
  • Edited 6:17pm Jun 28, 2023 6:01pm | Edited 6:17pm
Quoting Capablanca
But then, if we follow you logic of thought, the ideal rules would be ... ... if a prop had all this they would be hated.
-You seem to be missing my point. I am not advocating for these kinds of rules. I have already stated that I do not like most restrictive rules. However, some of these rules that are supposed to do something (such as create good habits), can actually do that (even if that is not the real intention), while others (forcing traders to use larger position sizes) do the complete opposite of that.
  • #17,232
  • Jun 28, 2023 6:15pm Jun 28, 2023 6:15pm
Quoting Takisd
Also what happened to that "we will pay you a salary" prop firm?
-I think 5%er's new model has this feature, but you have to scale up (flip account) like 7 times in a row to reach it.
  • #17,233
  • Jun 28, 2023 8:01pm Jun 28, 2023 8:01pm
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  • #17,234
  • Jun 28, 2023 8:28pm Jun 28, 2023 8:28pm
Quoting OutThere
{image}
Nice one, now we need something similar from mff or ftmo. I wonder if ftmo has ever had a decent discount?
  • #17,235
  • Jun 28, 2023 9:51pm Jun 28, 2023 9:51pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}But forcing traders to take whole positions in lieu of breaking them up into smaller sizes is just scammy hogwash.
I don't understand this logic. They are providing the opportunity. They are taking on the risk while the trader essentially has none. If they say you're not allowed to break up trades either fall in line or find another source of capital. You don't have to whine or complain, just produce your own capital and trade the way you want.

"I'm entitled to your resources. Let me do what I want or I'll call you names in the forum!"
  • #17,236
  • Jun 28, 2023 10:44pm Jun 28, 2023 10:44pm
5% DD to 10%DD is not realistic professional trading conditions and will see most participants fail. No? Discounts, discounts, giveaway,s giveaways in the land of lets get funded if you can not have drawdowns like pro traders.

Which firm has 30% DD and 4% target and is not a silly challenge model? There has to be one, no?
  • #17,237
  • Jun 28, 2023 11:07pm Jun 28, 2023 11:07pm
Quoting beastwork
I don't understand this logic. They are providing the opportunity. They are taking on the risk while the trader essentially has none. If they say you're not allowed to break up trades either fall in line or find another source of capital. You don't have to whine or complain, just produce your own capital and trade the way you want. "I'm entitled to your resources. Let me do what I want or I'll call you names in the forum!"
-I am not trading with them. I would not trade for a firm that had such a requirement. I am also not complaining, but discussing how such terms are nonsensical and seem borderline scammy. Nobody is calling anyone names or acting entitled here. Let's try to be civil.
  • #17,238
  • Jun 28, 2023 11:14pm Jun 28, 2023 11:14pm
Quoting FocusWinReal
5% DD to 10%DD is not realistic professional trading conditions and will see most participants fail. No? Discounts, discounts, giveaway,s giveaways in the land of lets get funded if you can not have drawdowns like pro traders. Which firm has 30% DD and 4% target and is not a silly challenge model? There has to be one, no?
Of course there is one....go to school, get your series 7 and commute back and forth everyday. I think you've stumbled into the wrong thread. Of course, I know you're just trying to engage us and "protect" us from the big bad remote prop firms we are trading with. We're big boys and girls here though, so we got this.
  • #17,239
  • Jun 28, 2023 11:16pm Jun 28, 2023 11:16pm
Quoting FocusWinReal
Which firm has 30% DD and 4% target and is not a silly challenge model? There has to be one, no?
-Yes. It's called the broker firm. All you need to do is deposit money into an account and start trading.
  • #17,240
  • Jun 28, 2023 11:16pm Jun 28, 2023 11:16pm
Quoting beastwork
{quote} I don't understand this logic. They are providing the opportunity. They are taking on the risk while the trader essentially has none. If they say you're not allowed to break up trades either fall in line or find another source of capital. You don't have to whine or complain, just produce your own capital and trade the way you want. "I'm entitled to your resources. Let me do what I want or I'll call you names in the forum!"
Exactly correct. However, we are just pointing out what a shitty opportunity it is compared to the other opportunities. That is what we do here, we evaluate the firms and look out for each other.
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