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Anyone trading with a Prop firm 31 replies

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  • #17,201
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:02pm Jun 28, 2023 4:02pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-One would think so. But we also have to remember that the funded account is not really 100k, but rather something like 10k, with actually only 5k at risk in most cases. Funding 5k with failed challenge fees does not seem too unreasonable, especially if the trader has shown consistency over several months.
They might be B-booking till it reaches threshold for A-booking. Since 90-95% of trader doesn't reach 1st payout B booking will make them profitable.
Caveat : Firm needs deep pocket as probabilities will only playout in longer term, short term it may be skewed.
They might be B-booking percentage of fees during challenge.
  • #17,202
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:05pm Jun 28, 2023 4:05pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Offering such an early payout is very risky, as it will likely skew the metrics considerably. It will be very interesting to see if they can sustain this model.
It is. As I stated some days ago this is like refunding after phase 2 because as soon as you get the funded you just need to make 5 USD or so profit to request the payout+refund.
  • #17,203
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:10pm Jun 28, 2023 4:10pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-The problem with charge-backs is that they can be easily abused, so the end result will be that all options will eventually become unavailable. After that, all payment processors will reject prop-related purchases and everything will default to crypto, which will only bring more scrutiny to cryptocurrency as it continues to be blamed for enabling all sorts of criminal activity and fraud etc.. That being said, I have never initiated a charge-back with a firm. For those that have, maybe consider yourself lucky as it may ultimately become a...
The idea is not to abuse. It's to protect ourselves against props like FT, TPT, etc. that evaporate overnight.

I'm not too concerned about being blacklisted as I would only use them when they disappear or stop operating, which was the case in all where I asked a charge back.

What I would like to know is if someone has experience regarding a payment platform that is more friendly to grant the charge back.
  • #17,204
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:10pm Jun 28, 2023 4:10pm
When I read through the posts, it almost seems as if everyone is being paid to analyze and figure out how the model works as opposed to being paid for trading. We will never truly know, yet day after day after day, the speculation continues.........does it really matter?
  • #17,205
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:14pm Jun 28, 2023 4:14pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Well, to whom was were considering BeSpoke and MFFx I don't think you would be worse off
True, but its the principal. I should look for one of the fresh fresh ones.
  • #17,206
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:16pm Jun 28, 2023 4:16pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The idea is not to abuse. It's to protect ourselves against props like FT, TPT, etc. that evaporate overnight. I'm not too concerned about being blacklisted as I would only use them when they disappear or stop operating, which was the case in all where I asked a charge back. What I would like to know is if someone has experience regarding a payment platform that is more friendly to grant the charge back.
Problem with charge back is you have 60 days for doing that. I have used 6 months of chargeback for funding talent after they got busted and denied my big payout.
Paypal will allow up to 6 months and most of credit cards (60 days)
  • #17,207
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:17pm Jun 28, 2023 4:17pm
Quoting pipmaster77
When I read through the posts, it almost seems as if everyone is being paid to analyze and figure out how the model works as opposed to being paid for trading. We will never truly know, yet day after day after day, the speculation continues.........does it really matter?
I guess it's just curiosity of whoever is a player for a long time. I'm also curious but I don't care much. I look to most of them as a bunch of crooks that I need to hit as fast as I can to receive a refund and get a free ride after that, trying to fly under the radar and following their rules, whatever stupidity they are.
And when they gone either I can get a charge back or I have already milked them a little bit.
  • #17,208
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:20pm Jun 28, 2023 4:20pm
Quoting pipmaster77
When I read through the posts, it almost seems as if everyone is being paid to analyze and figure out how the model works as opposed to being paid for trading. We will never truly know, yet day after day after day, the speculation continues.........does it really matter?
It matters a lot Mahn. You can't risk your money blindly just because someone says their system works even if it's for a few hundred bucks. If you don't question the system, that's how you easily get scammed like those crypto scammers promising to double your money in a week.
And in addition , the maths of the game is intriguing for me at least. I would just love to know how they manage to pay out millions of dollars every month mainly from failed challenges and some other system they won't disclose. Because if all the money is coming from failed challenges only, then it's either a ticking time bomb or its a very great business model that I would want to join as well just like lotteries.
  • #17,209
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:27pm Jun 28, 2023 4:27pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} It matters a lot Mahn. You can't risk your money blindly just because someone says their system works even if it's for a few hundred bucks. If you don't question the system, that's how you easily get scammed like those crypto scammers promising to double your money in a week. And in addition , the maths of the game is intriguing for me at least. I would just love to know how they manage to pay out millions of dollars every month mainly from failed challenges and some other system they won't disclose. Because if all the money is coming from...
Inserted Video

Here is how look at prop firms, I am a trader not investor, if I see a bubble I jump into it and my job is to get out before it gets busted.
You are not investing 100K to get 100K account. With 500$ if you get 10-12K of drawdown which you can loose it is goldmine. If you have traded long enough with so called legit brokers you would have risked even more.
  • #17,210
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:37pm Jun 28, 2023 4:37pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} It matters a lot Mahn. You can't risk your money blindly just because someone says their system works even if it's for a few hundred bucks. If you don't question the system, that's how you easily get scammed like those crypto scammers promising to double your money in a week. And in addition , the maths of the game is intriguing for me at least. I would just love to know how they manage to pay out millions of dollars every month mainly from failed challenges and some other system they won't disclose. Because if all the money is coming from...
Yes, but my point is......what's the point? No firm is ever going to disclose how it truly works, whether some or all of trades go to market or none at all. So it is all speculation on something we will never have the true info on anyway. To me it seems like wasted energy. Curiosity? Sure, I'm curious, but certainly am not going to rack my brains to figure out how they do it. I know for $500, I get 10-12K in DD to lose, fee refunded with first payout, I will trade with them as long as I can....beyond that, could care less. There are plenty of us in here with real world experience with these firms..... we know who pays, who to avoid, who has rules in place to make you fail. Use the ones that pay, once your fee is refunded, you literally have risked zero.
The irony is the folks trying to nalyze and figure out a book, b book, etc are the ones risking their money with all the new prop firm in a box offerings. I stated earlier today.......goal should be $600K MFF, $400K FTMO.........you're solid, you're not risking anything other than your ability, these 2 firms will not screw you.
Then if you can eek out 0.5-1.0% per week, you can throw your $5,000-10,000 weekly payout at these other unknowns with discretionary rules designed to make you fail
  • #17,211
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:39pm Jun 28, 2023 4:39pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWxZ...Z1bmRzIHN0YXRz Here is how look at prop firms, I am a trader not investor, if I see a bubble I jump into it and my job is to get out before it gets busted. You are not investing 100K to get 100K account. With 500$ if you get 10-12K of drawdown which you can loose it is goldmine. If you have traded long enough with so called legit brokers you would have risked even more.
The thing is, I've deliberately invested money in a Ponzi scheme that I knew was going to bust very soon but I knew the risk and I managed to recoup investment before the scheme went belly up because the payback time was very short.
But the prop firm business is different because it feels like its here to stay just like brokers yet it has a lot of the same characteristics of Ponzi schemes.
  • #17,212
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:40pm Jun 28, 2023 4:40pm
Quoting pipmaster77
When I read through the posts, it almost seems as if everyone is being paid to analyze and figure out how the model works as opposed to being paid for trading. We will never truly know, yet day after day after day, the speculation continues.........does it really matter?
-Yes. As traders, it is our job to navigate risk and to learn how to manage it effectively. Winning in the markets is easy. Not giving it all back to the market is the difficult part.

As such, it is important to understand the risks that we are dealing with, even if those risks may be short-lived. Just as a matter of fund allocation for diversification, it is important to be able to weigh those risks effectively.

After all, as a smart investor, you wouldn't allocate 20% of your investment portfolio into something without having an understanding about how it works so that you can have some idea of its longevity and sustainability etc.. And this holds true, not just with monetary investments and allocations, but with time as well.

But even for traders that do not particularly care much about that, what else are we going to talk about everyday? After all, trading is a lonely business. It's nice to be able to talk shop without having to talk about the same things every single day. Just my opinion.

For me, it's mostly just a curiosity. It's hard to be a trader if you do not have a passion for it. In my case, I have a passion for many things, most of which, I cannot talk to most people about in my day-to-day.
  • #17,213
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:41pm Jun 28, 2023 4:41pm
Quoting Capablanca
The idea is not to abuse. It's to protect ourselves against props like FT, TPT, etc. that evaporate overnight.
-Yes, of course. I was not asserting that.

Quoting Capablanca
I'm not too concerned about being blacklisted as I would only use them when they disappear or stop operating, which was the case in all where I asked a charge back.
-I see. That's fair. Good to know that you were able to do that after a certain period.
  • #17,214
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:41pm Jun 28, 2023 4:41pm
Quoting sampat
They might be B-booking till it reaches threshold for A-booking.
-Yes, but who decides that? Most firms are using a 3rd-party broker. I do not think that the broker will just A-book traders because the prop says so. So, I wonder about this when firms claim to be A-booking, as if they have a decision in the matter. It's just a curious thing for me, really, because if the firm has no decision here, then they cannot really have proper control over their risk.
  • #17,215
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:42pm Jun 28, 2023 4:42pm
Quoting pipmaster77
To me it seems like wasted energy. Curiosity? Sure, I'm curious, but certainly am not going to rack my brains to figure out how they do it.
-No brain-racking here. Just casual discussion.
  • #17,216
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:42pm Jun 28, 2023 4:42pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Total bullshit. One of my strats is weekly pivot trading. These positions are split into 4-5 small trades with a total risk of about 0.1% each, First one is smallest position as this has the widest stop. Not only do I EXPECT it to move against me and catch my other small trades, I HOPE it moves against me to pick up the entire "batch". So this particular firm would tell me, with my 0.5% risk accross the ENTIRE poisition that I cannot trade like that, however, I could open up 1 single trade and risk 4.0 %???? Are they out of their fucking...
Yep, Bespoke rules are saying that you need to take most of the risk initially instead of looking for better entry points.

It's like props preventing news. They are basically saying people not to have SL or TP during those times, even if it just 0.5% or 1%, to avoid triggering them during those 2 minutes. How can having an SL of 0.5% be a bad thing ?
  • #17,217
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:49pm Jun 28, 2023 4:49pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Yes. As traders, it is our job to navigate risk and to learn how to manage it effectively. Winning in the markets is easy. Not giving it all back to the market is the difficult part. As such, it is important to understand the risks that we are dealing with, even if those risks may be short-lived. Just as a matter of fund allocation for diversification, it is important to be able to weigh those risks effectively. After all, as a smart investor, you wouldn't allocate 20% of your investment portfolio into something without having an understanding...
Right, but diverifying risk in this space is simple, max the top 2 and get funding with 3,4 and 5 just in case. It's like when I was trading with the offshore brokers, nobody could understand it was actually less risky with a 500:1 broker than a 30:1, I literally had 80% of my trading bankroll FDIC insured in my bank and the remaining 20% split among 5 offshore brokers.......not one broker had more than 5% of my total trading capital. Yet, people would say, you're crazy you need to be with a regulated broker.....why? if they go bust I lose my entire roll, if one of the offshores goes, I lose 5%.
Keeping in mind, as well, in this space, once fee is refunded NONE OF YOUR MONEY is at risk, sure, there will be a pause in income while you pivot to another firm (if you haven't diversified)........so once again, figuring out the how's and why's to me is a complete waste of brain power....but to each their own.
  • #17,218
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:49pm Jun 28, 2023 4:49pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Yes. As traders, it is our job to navigate risk and to learn how to manage it effectively. Winning in the markets is easy. Not giving it all back to the market is the difficult part. As such, it is important to understand the risks that we are dealing with, even if those risks may be short-lived. Just as a matter of fund allocation for diversification, it is important to be able to weigh those risks effectively. After all, as a smart investor, you wouldn't allocate 20% of your investment portfolio into something without having an understanding...
The funny thing is that despite this being discussed here, over and over again, there are no solid conclusions.
And I believe this topic has an above average knowledge and experience in props and also people with good analytic skills.

Not discouraging the discussion at all. Far from that, this is the right place. I just think we won't reach a conclusion again.
  • #17,219
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:51pm Jun 28, 2023 4:51pm
Quoting Capablanca
It's like props preventing news. They are basically saying people not to have SL or TP during those times, even if it just 0.5% or 1%, to avoid triggering them during those 2 minutes.
-I do not look at like that. I see it as a precautionary warning to traders to not trade around big news events. And although I dislike having these kinds of restrictions on my trading, I do think that there is a difference between good practices and bad practices.

For example, forcing traders to not execute trades during big news events can help to create good habits, even if the general idea is to try to trip up traders. At the very least, it will force traders to simply be more aware of such news events, which will ultimately make them better traders.

Same with having a daily draw-down. I do not like it, personally, but it forces traders to be better.

However, forcing traders to not break up their trades into smaller positions is the opposite of good trading habits, in my opinion.
  • #17,220
  • Jun 28, 2023 4:56pm Jun 28, 2023 4:56pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} The funny thing is that despite this being discussed here, over and over again, there are no solid conclusions. And I believe this topic has an above average knowledge and experience in props and also people with good analytic skills. Not discouraging the discussion at all. Far from that, this is the right place. I just think we won't reach a conclusion again.
Even with Takisd who has worked for brokers we still haven't figured out it or he's hiding something from us but it's very meaningful discussion none the less. Let the brain raking continue
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