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  • #17,061
  • Jun 25, 2023 7:33am Jun 25, 2023 7:33am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Strange to see engineer there. In one of the prop groups that is label as a clear scam
What are the arguments? It's not like I've heard about shady stuff like with Bespoke, and the CEO seems to be more of a seasoned trader.
  • #17,062
  • Jun 25, 2023 8:12am Jun 25, 2023 8:12am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} What are the arguments? It's not like I've heard about shady stuff like with Bespoke, and the CEO seems to be more of a seasoned trader.
seasoned trader? Yikes. I hope that’s sarcasm
  • #17,063
  • Jun 25, 2023 8:21am Jun 25, 2023 8:21am
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So Ponzi or not remains the real question.

today we are emboldened by the amazing community trader driven wonders of a prop firm that pays out 95 percent, has weekly withdrawals, no time limits, all that and a bag of chips.

by now we should all recognize that 1 week is not enough to safely a book a customer, it’s not long enough to gather enough data to run a data driven model, so what is it?

a scam that’s right, it’s a scam.
  • #17,064
  • Jun 25, 2023 8:42am Jun 25, 2023 8:42am
Quoting Takisd
{image}So Ponzi or not remains the real question.
You know, with all the leaks going on in every aspect of the society, you'd expect that sooner or later, there would be an ex/disgruntled employee/partner or an affiliate completely spilling the beans. There is speculation or 'I heard' statements or other assertions without proof from the regular Joe. There has been court cases that shed some light on some of the operation but still, it is not clear if those particular props were doing something wrong that others weren't doing or if the props have adjusted somehow to not get caught based on lessons learned.

Also, just because a prop pays. cannot be the reason to accept that they are not ponzi. Only some proven insider can say what is really going on.
Anyone saw The Big Short? A play documentary of that style (hopefully factual) about prop firms would really hit the spot.
  • #17,065
  • Jun 25, 2023 8:45am Jun 25, 2023 8:45am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} seasoned trader? Yikes. I hope that’s sarcasm
I mean, compared to a kid on roids that runs Bespoke.

Quoting OutThere
{quote} Also, just because a prop pays. cannot be the reason to accept that they are not ponzi.
It is the reason why I'm moving at snails pace and reinvesting cashouts. Still, even then its a game of pick-em....
  • #17,066
  • Jun 25, 2023 8:52am Jun 25, 2023 8:52am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} You know, with all the leaks going on in every aspect of the society, you'd expect that sooner or later, there would be an ex/disgruntled employee/partner or an affiliate completely spilling the beans. There is speculation or 'I heard' statements or other assertions without proof from the regular Joe. There has been court cases that shed some light on some of the operation but still, it is not clear if those particular props were doing something wrong that others weren't doing or if the props have adjusted somehow to not get caught based...
sure

but the longevity of the props would require more than ponzi I think. It’s very diminishing returns when it comes to props cos without hyper growth you are constantly keeping good traders and dropping bad.
  • #17,067
  • Jun 25, 2023 9:11am Jun 25, 2023 9:11am
“Journalist” more like “fucking charlatan”

imagine trying to claim non bias whilst doing giveaways for companies. Just as pathetic as that Forexpropreviews clown who sells reviews to highest bidder.
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clown world
  • #17,068
  • Jun 25, 2023 9:15am Jun 25, 2023 9:15am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} sure but the longevity of the props would require more than ponzi I think. It’s very diminishing returns when it comes to props cos without hyper growth you are constantly keeping good traders and dropping bad.
The income curve from challenge revenue, I'd think, would be inverse of that of the payout curve. In that regard, running a prop is managing the net difference. If what you can keep is greater than the sum of payouts plus the cost of running the business, than you can call yourself accomplished. So, if someone has been in this business for a long time, it means they have been good managers of this cash flow mechanism.
  • #17,069
  • Jun 25, 2023 9:24am Jun 25, 2023 9:24am
Quoting Takisd
“Journalist” more like “fucking charlatan” imagine trying to claim non bias whilst doing giveaways for companies. Just as pathetic as that Forexpropreviews clown who sells reviews to highest bidder.{image} {image} clown world

Nothing surprising. A friend of mine used to run a highly competitive forex broker review website.

All sorts of shady brokers continuously bombarded him with offer for "unbiased" reviews.
  • #17,070
  • Jun 25, 2023 9:54am Jun 25, 2023 9:54am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} They have unclear rules (martingale and grid). You won't find a definition for that in their site (this is probably intentional). As far as I read in telegram group 2 positions is fine but if you enter 3 positions you need to make sure that doesn't fall into grid definition. For martingale they have the soft version. So if you buy 1 lot at 100, then 1.1 lot at 99 and then 1.1 lot at 98 this is soft martingale. Vitore here was denied a payout from them based on grid (I can't find the post but it's somewhere in the topic). I think BeSpoke...
Bespoke looks pretty good. Just got a 50K with them. Read on their Discord about the 'soft' grid/martingale. Couple trades are OK and no-problem with stacking profitable trades. Like noted 2 trades is the line. The 3rd is a 'warning'. They said its not auto-terminate so prob manual review. From CS Discord:
----------
"Adding two positions in drawdown is fine more than that might be considered as a martingale strategy, we have no problem with you placing as many trades as you like in the same area. For example, if you’re buying XAUUSD at 1900, you can place as many trades as you like within the range. Stacking in fine. The problem occurs when you take the same example of XAUUSD 1900 SELL and then you sell again at 1910, and then again at 1920, etc etc. only the first 2 positions will be counted. We do not fail traders for martingale/grid. We just deduct any profits made from position 3 & onwards.1"
  • #17,071
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:26am Jun 25, 2023 10:26am
Quoting Takisd
MFF and FTMO likely have more people in their demos than icmarkets has customers. Their live servers are pretty much the size of icmarkets. So yes I am saying they are bigger than almost all brokers.
-That is really something. Thanks.
  • #17,072
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:26am Jun 25, 2023 10:26am
Quoting Takisd
sure but the longevity of the props would require more than ponzi I think.
-I am still wondering about this. Matt at MFFX has made the claim that the rate of growth, for the industry as a whole, in terms of new customers/traders, is about 15% month-over-month. If that is true, then that is pretty amazing.

In terms of the ponzi model, maybe we have to consider that this may not be a ponzi in the traditional sense, since people are making buy-ins repeatedly and ongoing, in lieu of just a one-off investment.

At least, for now, it would seem that the argument could be made that it might be sufficient.
  • #17,073
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:26am Jun 25, 2023 10:26am
Quoting BlackOpz
"Adding two positions in drawdown is fine more than that might be considered as a martingale strategy, we have no problem with you placing as many trades as you like in the same area. For example, if you’re buying XAUUSD at 1900, you can place as many trades as you like within the range. Stacking in fine. The problem occurs when you take the same example of XAUUSD 1900 SELL and then you sell again at 1910, and then again at 1920, etc etc. only the first 2 positions will be counted. We do not fail traders for martingale/grid. We just deduct any profits...
-To each their own, but for me, this sounds contradicting and unreasonable. No reason for me to consider a firm that will employ such measures.

So instead of allowing traders to break up their trades into smaller position sizes to minimize slippage and potentially enter at a better price, they want to force traders to trade fewer and larger positions? Hmm...

If they will deduct all profits from position 3 & onward, I wonder if that same policy will apply to losses. Not that I care, but one has to wonder about it.
  • #17,074
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:37am Jun 25, 2023 10:37am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} What are the arguments? It's not like I've heard about shady stuff like with Bespoke, and the CEO seems to be more of a seasoned trader.
I cant answer that as I never paid much attention. I noticed that it's immediately discarded as "scam" by the administrator running the circus. I'll try to see if I can find out anything more about engineer
  • #17,075
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:38am Jun 25, 2023 10:38am
Quoting Takisd
“Journalist” more like “fucking charlatan” imagine trying to claim non bias whilst doing giveaways for companies. Just as pathetic as that Forexpropreviews clown who sells reviews to highest bidder.{image} {image} clown world
a journalist 100% independent as we see
  • #17,076
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:40am Jun 25, 2023 10:40am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I cant answer that as I never paid much attention. I noticed that it's immediately discarded as "scam" by the administrator running the circus. I'll try to see if I can find out anything more about engineer
Thanks. I'm not looking to expand beyond 1 account there but any info is appreciated.
  • #17,077
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:44am Jun 25, 2023 10:44am
Quoting BlackOpz
{quote} Bespoke looks pretty good. Just got a 50K with them. Read on their Discord about the 'soft' grid/martingale. Couple trades are OK and no-problem with stacking profitable trades. Like noted 2 trades is the line. The 3rd is a 'warning'. They said its not auto-terminate so prob manual review. From CS Discord: ---------- "Adding two positions in drawdown is fine more than that might be considered as a martingale strategy, we have no problem with you placing as many trades as you like in the same area. For example, if you’re buying XAUUSD at...
Too much discretionary and ambiguous for my taste. I prefer props without these unclear and ambiguous rules or at least that have a definition of the concepts.
Vitore may add something about BeSpoke as he was the one here with a denied payout.
  • #17,078
  • Jun 25, 2023 10:47am Jun 25, 2023 10:47am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-To each their own, but for me, this sounds contradicting and unreasonable. No reason for me to consider a firm that will employ such measures. So instead of allowing traders to break up their trades into smaller position sizes to minimize slippage and potentially enter at a better price, they want to force traders to trade fewer and larger positions? Hmm... If they will deduct all profits from position 3 & onward, I wonder if that same policy will apply to losses. Not that I care, but one has to wonder about it.
Yep, their rules "force" people to have an initial big positions in order to be able to add a smaller second one.

And before the third one you need to be always thinking twice if you can or not. This is not for me to consider as a normal and regular prop where I can trade as I please. I may give them a stab on them but never looking into a long term relation.

And the CEO is a kid and behaving like la kid in telegram groups.
  • #17,079
  • Jun 25, 2023 11:47am Jun 25, 2023 11:47am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I cant answer that as I never paid much attention. I noticed that it's immediately discarded as "scam" by the administrator running the circus. I'll try to see if I can find out anything more about engineer
I'll report back. I like their conditions and their TrustPilot looks pretty good. Needed a new-start leg to test so I gave them the slot.
  • #17,080
  • Jun 25, 2023 11:57am Jun 25, 2023 11:57am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-In terms of the ponzi model, maybe we have to consider that this may not be a ponzi in the traditional sense, since people are making buy-ins repeatedly and ongoing, in lieu of just a one-off investment. At least, for now, it would seem that the argument could be made that it might be sufficient.
Baby Ponzi BUT sustainable with decent biz practices. Too bad scammers will be attracted to the fast/easy money. Good thing you don't have to deliver anything other than a demo account for the challenge fee and there will ALWAYS be more losers than winners so there's a cash floor that helps survivability. 2nd with all of the data on the funded traders you can A-Book the top traders with steady records and good Pearson's (nice equity slope). After 3 months funded I'd start A-booking the best of the bunch to earn piggyback profits (and insulate yourself from source trader $$$ gains).
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