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  • #16,561
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:15am Jun 12, 2023 3:15am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} Don't most of them ban grid and similar strategies? From my personal experience, 30 days were not enough for my profitable but slow approach strategy of 6-8 swing trades per month. However, my style is easily replicated by any firm out there. Maybe we'll get some common ground out there where we'll get 45-60 days for phase 1, or something that we havent seen so far - an option to purchase an extension or two for a particular acc. That could be a game-changer. I think prop space will, inevitably, consolidate.
But that won't sell right? The more restrictions you have the more people attack.

Meanwhile on the internet.

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  • #16,562
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:27am Jun 12, 2023 3:27am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} It defeats the purpose of a prop firm. Why should everyone get funded? Why not just the people who are good? If people want to pass a no time limit firm, just grid a low volatility pair and buy the biggest account size and use the smallest lot size. Eventually you will get funded. You could even long short grid it where you are buying and selling at the same time and closing out at certain points. A prop firm's purpose is not to find people who are going to blow a live account it is to find traders who can trade real capital. IF the prop...
I don't think their purpose is to find good traders. We all know that flipping an account within 30 days is pure gambling. I can make with my strategy some 1-3% profit per month with the same max dd and I don't see any prop firm being interested in this type of performance. However, normal investors are very happy with such rr.
  • #16,563
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:32am Jun 12, 2023 3:32am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} I don't think their purpose is to find good traders. We all know that flipping an account within 30 days is pure gambling. I can make with my strategy some 1-3% profit per month with the same max dd and I don't see any prop firm being interested in this type of performance. However, normal investors are very happy with such rr.
If you were live I am sure at least FTMO and MFF would be interested in that flow. But you gotta filter out the trash to find the gold. If you provide too easy conditions you just fill up with trash and the traders like you will be overlooked considerably further extending the ponzi process.

But I think in 60 days we will see what happens, explosive growth, unreasonable conditions in about 60 days those accounts should be close to payout time and thats when the house of cards should shake.
  • #16,564
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:39am Jun 12, 2023 3:39am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-But Angelo has a $100 Million company bro.
And chess and poker tournaments. Nobody talks about that. Very unfair people here.
  • #16,565
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:47am Jun 12, 2023 3:47am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} If you were live I am sure at least FTMO and MFF would be interested in that flow. But you gotta filter out the trash to find the gold. If you provide too easy conditions you just fill up with trash and the traders like you will be overlooked considerably further extending the ponzi process. But I think in 60 days we will see what happens, explosive growth, unreasonable conditions in about 60 days those accounts should be close to payout time and thats when the house of cards should shake.
I agree. I have pretty much stopped buying new challenges at this point as things have started to evolve a bit faster than I expected. The current model is not sustainable for the props as they encourage gambling in the challenges and once funded the same behavior starts to work against them. That's why I think a max profit rule could be helpful for them. It would also increase transparency and reduce the need to use some hidden rules. In the real world the trader gets some 20-30% share as no sane investor would provide risk funds to a MM with 80-90% PF.
  • #16,566
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:52am Jun 12, 2023 3:52am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} It defeats the purpose of a prop firm. Why should everyone get funded? Why not just the people who are good? If people want to pass a no time limit firm, just grid a low volatility pair and buy the biggest account size and use the smallest lot size. Eventually you will get funded. You could even long short grid it where you are buying and selling at the same time and closing out at certain points. A prop firm's purpose is not to find people who are going to blow a live account it is to find traders who can trade real capital. IF the prop...
I like the unlimited. Some days I don't get setups for trading so it's not rare to end up with just 4 or 5 days in the 30 days challenges, 4 or 5% down and I have to make a flip coin to see if I get a free retry. I wouldn't have to do that if I had unlimited (or at least 60 or 90 days phase 1, where targets are tougher).

Also because not every prop have extension. So it's very annoying that you make 4% this month, you get a free retake starting from scratch, then another 3% the next month and you get another free retake. And then another 5% and another free retake. It's a rate race. With unlimited you could have made it.

I understand that for props this is terrible but from traders perspective this is good (forgetting the danger of props may fall apart, financially).
We are no worse than before. Those that pass in 1 hour will go on passing in 1 hour. Those having troubles with 30 days may have a chance to get there.
  • #16,567
  • Jun 12, 2023 3:55am Jun 12, 2023 3:55am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} I agree. I have pretty much stopped buying new challenges at this point as things have started to evolve a bit faster than I expected. The current model is not sustainable for the props as they encourage gambling in the challenges and once funded the same behavior starts to work against them. That's why I think a max profit rule could be helpful for them. It would also increase transparency and reduce the need to use some hidden rules. In the real world the trader gets some 20-30% share as no sane investor would provide risk funds to a MM...
That would destroy the marketing narrative "we win with you".

If they (supposely) have 20% of our profits why would they want people to stop at 30K if they could make 300K ? We know why but that would be an official confession that all this marketing "looking for winning traders" is pure BS.
  • #16,568
  • Jun 12, 2023 4:02am Jun 12, 2023 4:02am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} That would destroy the marketing narrative "we win with you". If they (supposely) have 20% of our profits why would they want people to stop at 30K if they could make 300K ? We know why but that would be an official confession that all this marketing "looking for winning traders" is pure BS.
Of course it would destroy the narrative but the current model is not sustainable in the long run. I didn't say that they should reduce the profit share to 20-30% and then also have max profit rule. Just wanted to point out how things work in real life compared to this prop ponzi fantasy scheme. In real life the investors usually want to see some 12 months or more steady performance before investing any substantial funds.
  • #16,569
  • Jun 12, 2023 4:08am Jun 12, 2023 4:08am
Quoting Takisd
{image} Expecting to see a lot more of this soon.
are they a forex broker? i guess not. why isn t that person making a splash on their discord? it could force their hand if they can t come up with reasonable evidence that some sort of shady crap was taking place.
  • #16,570
  • Jun 12, 2023 4:26am Jun 12, 2023 4:26am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I like the unlimited. Some days I don't get setups for trading so it's not rare to end up with just 4 or 5 days in the 30 days challenges, 4 or 5% down and I have to make a flip coin to see if I get a free retry. I wouldn't have to do that if I had unlimited (or at least 60 or 90 days phase 1, where targets are tougher). Also because not every prop have extension. So it's very annoying that you make 4% this month, you get a free retake starting from scratch, then another 3% the next month and you get another free retake. And then another...
That's exactly my point.
I think we're going to see the great cleansing, and maybe a handful will make it through. From the rules/benefits standpoint - I dont see things getting better as this. It does feel like we're peaking in terms of favorable conditions for traders.

For us that focus on making 3-5% per month, I hope someone figures out to survive with the unlimited model, or at least that we get longer phase 1 periods - 60-90 days.
  • #16,571
  • Jun 12, 2023 4:31am Jun 12, 2023 4:31am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} That's exactly my point. I think we're going to see the great cleansing, and maybe a handful will make it through. From the rules/benefits standpoint - I dont see things getting better as this. It does feel like we're peaking in terms of favorable conditions for traders. For us that focus on making 3-5% per month, I hope someone figures out to survive with the unlimited model, or at least that we get longer phase 1 periods - 60-90 days.
imo, those who fail will keep on failing regardless of the unlimited time, that s why they came up with this. maybe a handfull of people will pass cos they have no pressure to hit the targets, but in the grand scheme of things with such a high failure rate, i don t really think it will affect prop firms that much.
  • #16,572
  • Jun 12, 2023 4:47am Jun 12, 2023 4:47am
Quoting 1odi
{quote} imo, those who fail will keep on failing regardless of the unlimited time, that s why they came up with this. maybe a handfull of people will pass cos they have no pressure to hit the targets, but in the grand scheme of things with such a high failure rate, i don t really think it will affect prop firms that much.
Yes, most fail within 20 days. Pretty sure MFF told us that and a few others.

I think the program itself the evaluation that everyone has, is dated and needs changing completely.
  • #16,573
  • Jun 12, 2023 5:53am Jun 12, 2023 5:53am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Yes, most fail within 20 days. Pretty sure MFF told us that and a few others. I think the program itself the evaluation that everyone has, is dated and needs changing completely.
hmm, now we come to an interesting question

Knowing what you know, how would you design the testing period before giving out live accs?
  • #16,574
  • Jun 12, 2023 6:32am Jun 12, 2023 6:32am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} hmm, now we come to an interesting question Knowing what you know, how would you design the testing period before giving out live accs?
Lets take your case into consideration, I would probably do a lot size specific trading account and use the margin as the scaling (I have recommended this already to a firm i consulted for)with a 90 day period to achieve the goal. Similar to the old futures arcades whilst it would irritate the people who actually can't trade, you would get more of those that can and the management of the trading in terms of execution/dealing is much easier.

3 months, enforced risk management within tolerable levels. If you can pass, you know how to trade. If you can't you don't.
  • #16,575
  • Jun 12, 2023 6:46am Jun 12, 2023 6:46am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Lets take your case into consideration, I would probably do a lot size specific trading account and use the margin as the scaling (I have recommended this already to a firm i consulted for)with a 90 day period to achieve the goal. Similar to the old futures arcades whilst it would irritate the people who actually can't trade, you would get more of those that can and the management of the trading in terms of execution/dealing is much easier. 3 months, enforced risk management within tolerable levels. If you can pass, you know how to trade....
Sounds reasonable to me.
I passed a 100k acc using literally no position larger than 2 lots and without trade stacking.
  • #16,576
  • Jun 12, 2023 7:20am Jun 12, 2023 7:20am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} Sounds reasonable to me. I passed a 100k acc using literally no position larger than 2 lots and without trade stacking.
You are one of the sane ones.

But behind you is 300000 people screaming "IM A SCALPER" then complaining that their 100 lot position got slipped without knowing what the market actually is.

For the firms that are honest enough I feel for them because they have to deal with the two sides of the coin, if you restrict too much, you lose market share, if you are too loose you die and in both circumstances you have to deal with people who probably shouldn't be trading. Perhaps this is why taco bell cannot find employees.
  • #16,577
  • Jun 12, 2023 7:45am Jun 12, 2023 7:45am
Quoting TraderTero
That's why I think a max profit rule could be helpful for them.
-This would shift things towards a gamification model that was spoken about previously. Not sure if the added, regulatory exposure would be good for the space as it would likely be viewed as gambling, I suppose.
  • #16,578
  • Jun 12, 2023 8:03am Jun 12, 2023 8:03am
Quoting Takisd
Lets take your case into consideration, I would probably do a lot size specific trading account and use the margin as the scaling ... 3 months, enforced risk management within tolerable levels. If you can pass, you know how to trade. If you can't you don't.
-How would this look like, once funded? Account size, risk/rules, leverage etc.?

I think, transitioning to a more traditional model may not be easy. Probably, the offering would need to be reasonably better than what is currently being offered with ponzi models, simply for the time and effort-involvement.
  • #16,579
  • Jun 12, 2023 8:03am Jun 12, 2023 8:03am
Quoting Takisd
I think the program itself the evaluation that everyone has, is dated and needs changing completely.
-If remote props took on a more traditional role, I wonder how things could be structured so that traders would even be interested?

On the one hand, traders may be able to sidestep all of the licensing requirements and the traveling back-and-forth to an office everyday. This would still be better than traditional prop. However, traders would certainly need to actually be good and be able to prove themselves over a 3-month period (at least). This would cause most of the traders in this space to probably drop off of a cliff and disappear.

Unless these firms were willing and able to pay something out during this trial period, then something like Myfxbook would need to be used so that traders can keep on trading their own accounts and use their performance from that to get them in the door. Any challenge fees (on-boarding fees) would have to be removed, other than maybe some initial administrative/support costs etc..

I also think that most traders will not be willing to spend so much time and effort for only 10k of draw-down or similar, so that would definitely need to be improved. However, the necessary risk-mitigation measures that would follow, resulting in stricter rules, would deter a lot of traders. At this point, you might be lucky to have any good traders that are willing and able to work with you.

I am curious how things could be structured and actually work so that we can transition from this ponzi model and move into a more traditional, long-term, viable model while keeping the offering better than traditional prop. The ponzi model would certainly be a good stepping-stone for firms to transition, as it could potentially provide them with the necessary capital to get started.

I suspect that most firms would want to keep riding the ponzi wave, though, since it is already established, easier and likely more predictable. Eventually, that wave will come crashing down on a lot of firms, though, and it may be too late to transition. This is when we will see a lot of consolidation in this space; survival of the fittest.

I personally like the ponzi model. It's a fast, easy way to generate a lot of capital that can be used to fund personal accounts, where I have the freedom to trade how I choose. As such, once things settle and we are left with 1 or 2 firms that survive, the answer will likely come in the form of simply... significantly-reduced leverage.
  • #16,580
  • Jun 12, 2023 8:45am Jun 12, 2023 8:45am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-If remote props took on a more traditional role, I wonder how things could be structured so that traders would even be interested? On the one hand, traders may be able to sidestep all of the licensing requirements and the traveling back-and-forth to an office everyday. This would still be better than traditional prop. However, traders would certainly need to actually be good and be able to prove themselves over a 3-month period (at least). This would cause most of the traders in this space to probably drop off of a cliff and disappear. Unless...
The model, as is with this many participants, wont last. And the end result will be massive distrust or regulation like we've never seen before. It won't be a "light spanking" by the regulator it will be a full blown NO. No more.

When the firms that have all these bells and whistles start collapsing, there will be a place for more traditional set ups.

Also, 10k dd isnt enough? Imagine being able to pass something calmly for $500 and saying 10k dd isnt enough This is the 2023 we live in. Especially if its all being executed some how then the 10k is a lot of money to risk for someones $500.

I remember when we used to say 5 pip spread is fine for eurusd. I think the community as a whole has lost sight of opportunity amongst the noise. Even when FTMO first was getting big we started saying nahhhhhhh this is bullshit its too good to be true. Now look at the conversations we are having.
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