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  • #15,321
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:03am Apr 24, 2023 6:03am
Quoting pipmaster77
once again, where is the magic that makes the $160 or the $200 be more than what it actually is?
-He is referring to the stop-out levels. I guess he thinks that you would not be able to trade the full $160. Some brokers have very low minimums (and much higher leverage), though. And as previously mentioned, you can just provide the stop-out protection yourself; you will be much better off in the long-run.
  • #15,322
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:09am Apr 24, 2023 6:09am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} You used $200/$160. But read your statement.........you put the same numbers side by side $160/$160 and $200/$200 and yet in the same sentence say they won't be the same....once again, where is the magic that makes the $160 or the $200 be more than what it actually is?
It doesn't matter what kind of funding we are talking about here. In real life you have less equity available for trading in your own account than in a prop account as there are no margin calls and stop-out with props. Can make a big difference depending on the strategy you are using.
  • #15,323
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:14am Apr 24, 2023 6:14am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-He is referring to the stop-out levels. I guess he thinks that you would not be able to trade the full $160. Some brokers have very low minimums (and much higher leverage), though. And as previously mentioned, you can just provide the stop-out protection yourself; you will be much better off in the long-run.
But in either case, you shouln't be even close to the full $160, I guess if you are using 100% risk???? Then that is kind of contradictory as to the no gambling reason of why he doesn't trade challenges?
I understand you have more "buying power" with the firm, because the margin is based on the equity....so what do you get one more level to add in the prop before it goes bust as well? The bottom line, despite the equity or buying power, once you lose $160 in EITHER ACCOUNT.....it's over.
  • #15,324
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:19am Apr 24, 2023 6:19am
Quoting TraderTero
It doesn't matter what kind of funding we are talking about here. In real life you have less equity available for trading in your own account than in a prop account as there are no margin calls and stop-out with props. Can make a big difference depending on the strategy you are using.
-So start your personal account with twice as much capital and see which one wins. Oh, wait, you can't. Why? Because the instant will always have a strict draw-down requirement, putting you at constant risk of losing your account more easily, while the personal account will have much more room to play with (more draw-down for profit and protection as the account grows).

Meanwhile, once you reach your highest level on instant (not likely), you will still be paying 50% profit split in perpetuity. Not only that, but the account balance that you see on instant when you finally reach that point will not actually be yours. Whereas, in a personal account, it will be.

As I say, the benefit of instant is short-lived. You will not fair better in the long-run.
  • #15,325
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:25am Apr 24, 2023 6:25am
Quoting pipmaster77
I understand you have more "buying power" with the firm, because the margin is based on the equity....
-In some cases, even that's not true, because the leverage offered on most instant programs is garbage compared to a broker.
  • #15,326
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:33am Apr 24, 2023 6:33am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} But in either case, you shouln't be even close to the full $160, I guess if you are using 100% risk???? Then that is kind of contradictory as to the no gambling reason of why he doesn't trade challenges? I understand you have more "buying power" with the firm, because the margin is based on the equity....so what do you get one more level to add in the prop before it goes bust as well? The bottom line, despite the equity or buying power, once you lose $160 in EITHER ACCOUNT.....it's over.
You would still be in a worse situation with your own account. Lets use your 10p SL strategy as a sample and the $700 own account. Let's presume you hit the SL 25 times in a row, the margin usage requirements will start to force you to use smaller lots after each loss and this will make your recovery much harder compared to a prop account.

Just as a sample, if you have a $200 account with 1:500 you can open in total 1.0 lots, whereas with a $2000 prop account with 1:100 you can open 2 lots. In many cases US and EU traders can have max 1:50 or even 1:30 leverage, with 1:30 and $200, you can open only 0.08 lots.
  • #15,327
  • Edited 6:50am Apr 24, 2023 6:39am | Edited 6:50am
Quoting TraderTero
Just as a sample, if you have a $200 account with 1:500 you can open in total 1.0 lots, whereas with a $2000 prop account with 1:100 you can open 2 lots. In many cases US and EU traders can have max 1:50 or even 1:30 leverage, with 1:30 and $200, you can open only 0.08 lots.
-Any decent broker offers at least 1:500. Of the US traders that I know of that post here are not using local brokers. The leverage that is offered for most instant programs, on the other hand, is only about 10% of what is offered via a decent broker.
  • #15,328
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:42am Apr 24, 2023 6:42am
leverage 1:500 is easy to get. Don't know for americans, but via Australia very easy, or seychelles-vanuatu.

fusion, fpmarkets, icmarkets, eightcap 1:500 very easy to get.

I use fusion, 0 spread right now on the 7 majors.
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in holiday till end of November
  • #15,329
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:55am Apr 24, 2023 6:55am
Quoting forexbali
leverage 1:500 is easy to get. Don't know for americans, but via Australia very easy, or seychelles-vanuatu. fusion, fpmarkets, icmarkets, eightcap 1:500 very easy to get. I use fusion, 0 spread right now on the 7 majors. {image}
most of them do not accept US traders. And the higher leverage you get, when you use it all for trading, the automatic stop-out process triggers relatively soon so from the $100 balance for example you may freely use e.g. $10-20 until the stop-out process starts liquidating your positions. So from you personal $100 account you can basically use about those $10-20 only.

For US traders you either get very low leverage, so you cannot compete to instant funding due to low margin, or you somehow get high leverage, use it fully, but then you are technically limited by a drawdown limit of about 10-20% of your personal account balance, ie. similar to the instant funding account. In neither case you can use the mathematical advantage of trading the personal account. Prop firms know that. That's why the instant offers still exist and traders still buy them.

I guess that's one of the points TraderTero is trying to highlight
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #15,330
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:02am Apr 24, 2023 7:02am
Quoting Vitore
most of them do not accept US traders. And the higher leverage you get, when you use it all for trading, the automatic stop-out process triggers relatively soon so from the $100 balance for example you may freely use e.g. $10-20 until the stop-out process starts liquidating your positions.
-Of the top brokers that US traders use, that I know of, all are offshore and offer at least 1:500 leverage. The stop-out levels vary between brokers.

Quoting Vitore
For US traders you either get very low leverage, so you cannot compete to instant funding due to low margin, or you somehow get high leverage, use it fully, but then you are technically limited by a drawdown limit of about 10-20% of your personal account balance, ie. similar to the instant funding account.
-But this is not true. Leverage is better than instant and you have more than 10%-20% draw-down. If you have a broker that offers micros, then you can trade it all the way down to almost nothing if you wanted to.

Quoting Vitore
I guess that's one of the points TraderTero is trying to highlight
-He keeps jumping from point to point, trying to prove something. I don't even know what, at this point.
  • #15,331
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:05am Apr 24, 2023 7:05am
Quoting forexbali
leverage 1:500 is easy to get. Don't know for americans, but via Australia very easy, or seychelles-vanuatu. fusion, fpmarkets, icmarkets, eightcap 1:500 very easy to get. I use fusion, 0 spread right now on the 7 majors. {image}
zero spreads and dishonest brokers like fusion and icm,,which put huge execution delays plug-in if u trade in scalper mode
more honest spreads and brokers are better
  • #15,332
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:08am Apr 24, 2023 7:08am
Quoting spacca
{quote} zero spreads and dishonest brokers like fusion and icm,,which put huge execution delays plug-in if u trade in scalper mode more honest spreads and brokers are better
ICM has less lots in the first levels, but with fusion much better. Never got a problem, of usually with max 1-2 lots.
Also Fpmarkets has a liquid book.

The best I like are fusion-fpmarkets, but if you trade with bigger lots, for sure you can compare better the slippage.
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,333
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:23am Apr 24, 2023 7:23am
I get the math. But I also look at it this way:

Unless someone can find me a good broker that accepts US citizens and offers 1:100 or better leverage WITHOUT having to convert to crypto and back to fund / withdraw (because that adds more cost and tax headaches), then I'm stuck with terms like this or worse with Forex.com, Oanda, or Trading.com: https://www.trading.com/us/trading/c...argin-leverage. I'd rather put $1K into The5ers or CTI than a personal account because by Level 2 I'm trading with more capital and using a better broker than I can do with a personal account, unless I want to deal with crypto and FinCEN / FBAR reporting and all the tax headaches of that. I know it doesn't scale as well after Level 2 as a personal account, but initially it's a pretty good deal in my situation, making them very appealing. Of course, E8 or MFFX with 60 days or unlimited time is an even better value, no doubt about it.
  • #15,334
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:27am Apr 24, 2023 7:27am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} They do extended with 10% DD in E8. You are lucky because they did on the right program. Elev8 here other prop trader think is not so good deal, because you get 100K at the same price of 250K and to scale you have to do a 16% in 1 month! gambling.... so you can scale much better with the E8 acccount! so the Elev8 not so interesting, same price 100K or 250K...
I agree, I don't like E8's Elev8 account either, not a good deal compared to their extended account.
  • #15,335
  • Edited 7:43am Apr 24, 2023 7:32am | Edited 7:43am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-But this is not true. Leverage is better than instant and you have more than 10%-20% draw-down. If you have a broker that offers micros, then you can trade it all the way down to almost nothing if you wanted to.
Well it is more complicated then I described and I didn't describe it the best way.

Yes, if you used full margin right at the beginning only from the available balance then your DD limit is at the trigger level which would be 50% of your balance with IC Markets or even maybe 20% with some other brokers.

But if you look for such a high leverage then you are likely ready to use it. So what happens when the price goes in your direction and your equity (and free margin) grows up so that you can buy (or sell) more? You buy (or sell) more. And that's exactly the moment when your trigger level (i.e. the DD limit) raises up. It can raise up to even above your actual balance (as you keep buying from your open profit). Then the trigger can fire at even $200 or $300 or any other equity level when the price reverts. And this would not happen on the instant account (unless they applied floating DD based on your actual intraday equity)

From this point of view, your small personal account even with high leverage cannot compete with the instant account as you can liquidate it in a blink of an eye due to the overleveraging. But with low leverage (or not using the full potential of the high leverage) you cannot compete with the instant account of 10x the size for not having enough margin

EDIT:
I guess this would need some proper simulation (or more complicated math) to depict how the personal account would compare to the instant account and there would be more inputs to use than just the account balances, fee for the instant, and leverages. We might find out that the way the instant accounts are set up are more or less on par with what you'd be (realistically with all the other parameters considered) get from your personal account. Maybe. I don't know
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #15,336
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:33am Apr 24, 2023 7:33am
Quoting AaronPriest
Unless someone can find me a good broker that accepts US citizens and offers 1:100 or better leverage WITHOUT having to convert to crypto and back to fund / withdraw (because that adds more cost and tax headaches), then I'm stuck with terms like this or worse
-You can thank the US government for that. Most of the offshore brokers that offer wire transfers to US citizens (that meet your criteria), no longer accept US citizens and only cater to those that have been grandfathered in. And it is not because they do not want to accept US citizens, it is because doing so would open them up to US regulatory requirements and be a costly burden.

Quoting AaronPriest
60 days or unlimited time is an even better value, no doubt about it.
-Most here advocate for challenge models because they offer the best value. Now that there are 1-step challenge models, as well as challenge models with unlimited time, it does not make sense to even consider the instant model unless you are absolutely strapped for cash. But if you are in the position of needing money now, then you probably shouldn't be trading yet.
  • #15,337
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:43am Apr 24, 2023 7:43am
Quoting Vitore
From this point of view, your small personal account even with high leverage cannot compete with the instant account as you can liquidate it in a blink of an eye due to the overleveraging. But with low leverage (or not using the full potential of the high leverage) you cannot compete with the instant account of 10x the size for not having enough margin
-I appreciate your perspective, but I think there may be a few considerations that may need to be looked at.

For one, you do not have to trade aggressively, as you have described. I certainly do not trade that way. And second, although the account balance of the instant is much larger, therefore offering you seemingly more buying power, the stop-out is still locked-in based on the draw-down allowance. So the risk of ruin is the same.

As previously-mentioned, if you started out your personal account with 2x the initial investment so that you are afforded the same stop-out protection as the instant account, you will most definitely fair better over the long-term. The only advantage that the instant offers is during the initial phases and is short-lived. As the two different accounts grow, the advantage of the personal account becomes indisputable, and, the downsides of the instant start to become more noticeable.

I think, if people want to trade instant accounts, then they should absolutely do that; whatever they want to do. The problem that I have is when people spread half-truths and falsities, which tarnish the integrity of this thread and could potentially mislead newbie traders. I do not need to be right. If I state something that is wrong, then I prefer that someone will correct me in lieu of allowing me to continue believing that I am correct.
  • #15,338
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:50am Apr 24, 2023 7:50am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-You can thank the US government for that. Most of the offshore brokers that offer wire transfers to US citizens (that meet your criteria), no longer accept US citizens and only cater to those that have been grandfathered in. And it is not because they do not want to accept US citizens, it is because doing so would open them up to US regulatory requirements and be a costly burden. {quote}-Most here advocate for challenge models because they offer the best value. Now that there are 1-step challenge models, as well as challenge models with...
No, I don't blame them at all for refusing to get entangled with our monstrously complicated and overbearing government, LOL! It's not the broker's fault. I'd still love to find a better broker to open a personal account with if any US citizens here have a good suggestion. Probably not the right thread for that question though.
  • #15,339
  • Apr 24, 2023 7:59am Apr 24, 2023 7:59am
I been reading since few days discussion here about what models are better. I have to say that comparing regular broker account vs instant funding is without sense. There is few factors missing here.

Regular broker will more likely execute without huge slippage when news time. Been trading with Ic markets 1:500 execution was very fast while with prop firm often platform is freezed or u get huge slippage. Considering this flipping account with instant prop model is honestly without sense, who will build account up to 1 million $ with some instant model without guarantee of being paid and not being kicked out by some black Swan event. It affects regular brokers as well, but went thru this kind of situation few times in past 15 years and have to say that reputable broker will even consider your SL and after huge slippage will do refund after this kind of unexpected event.

2 step Challenges wins math calculations invested capital vs possible payout, but I think there is psychological and technical trading aspect missing in this all posts. For example if someone approach challenge expecting to pass it in 1-2 days like I do for me the most important is expected payout vs amount invested vs time needed to pass challenge and first payout.

Also there is other factor like promotions, I bought 5k one step MFFX account last week, it was 30$ and I don't care that is trailing drawdown 6% because either I will do 2-3 good trades and pass or I will loose very small amount. If I fail it is no problem because I invested very small amount and very little time for this. For me is simple as that : today is Monday beginning of last week of month so I expect indeces will go up and range till end of week, I will close either when reaching target today which is 400 or I will loose daily loss limit and lost this account for good tomorrow because will have not much space for drawdown. 2 trades at morning, no more guessing catching moves no fomo no expectations just waiting...
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  • #15,340
  • Apr 24, 2023 9:06am Apr 24, 2023 9:06am
I get slipped on every single trade on ICMarkets and tickmill. I am happy with them, but my trading accounts there are bigger than my prop funding and the slippage is representative of my trading volume.

#stopspreadingrubbish
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