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  • #15,301
  • Apr 24, 2023 4:16am Apr 24, 2023 4:16am
Quoting forexbali
thr5ers payout goes uo to 100% what would change in this chart using 5ers and not MFF?
-Looking at 40k instant (just quick looking here, so maybe some mistakes):

1. Draw-down is 6% while target for scaling is 10%, which means you will need to flip the account 1.666666666 times in order to scale up with each level.
2. Buy-in is $850. In order to receive 100% payout, you will need to scale up to level 7.
3. In order to scale up to level 7, you will need to flip your account at least 9.999999999 times in a row without going bust.
4. If you flip $850 in a personal account 9.999999999 times, you will have approximately 870k and can keep 100% of profits; no rules and can withdraw anytime.
5. If you flip the instant account that many times, your draw-down will only be 76k and you will be stuck sticking to 6% max loss forever and any other rules/restrictions that may come with that.

What are the odds that you will flip an account 10 times without going bust? And even if you can do that, why not flip 1k on a personal account and turn it into 1M, having full control, no rules, anytime-withdrawals etc.?

As far as the chart goes, I cannot say. I have not really looked at the chart and I try not to pay much attention to instant programs.

Instant programs, while good for a firm's longevity, really only serve the firm in most cases.
  • #15,302
  • Apr 24, 2023 4:22am Apr 24, 2023 4:22am
Myfunded fx has 5% daily dd but with max dd of 8% only,i think i would go with TTT with max 10% dd
  • #15,303
  • Apr 24, 2023 4:52am Apr 24, 2023 4:52am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Looking at 40k instant (just quick looking here, so maybe some mistakes): 1. Draw-down is 6% while target for scaling is 10%, which means you will need to flip the account 1.666666666 times in order to scale up with each level. 2. Buy-in is $850. In order to receive 100% payout, you will need to scale up to level 7. 3. In order to scale up to level 7, you will need to flip your account at least 9.999999999 times in a row without going bust. 4. If you flip $850 in a personal account 9.999999999 times, you will have approximately 870k and...
I don't understand what is for you to "flip" my personal account.

In the 5ers I need to make 10% profit to scale. In my personal account what mean to flip 10 times?
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,304
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:20am Apr 24, 2023 5:20am
Quoting forexbali
I don't understand what is for you to "flip" my personal account. In the 5ers I need to make 10% profit to scale. In my personal account what mean to flip 10 times?
-You asked me about the instant program, since it allows you to have up to 100% profit split. However, in order to obtain 100% profit split, you would need to flip the account 10 times.

In order to scale on 5%er's instant, you need to flip the account 1.666666666 times for each level. It is not 10% to scale.

The buy-in for 40k is $850. This affords you $1,200 worth of draw-down allowance, since 6% of 20k is $1,200. That means that your real account size is only $1,200 (with no stop-out). Since you have to earn 2k profit on the account in order to scale, that means that your real profit target is not 10%, but 166.66666666666%. That is flipping the account more than once.

Flipping an account means doubling it.
  • #15,305
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:27am Apr 24, 2023 5:27am
Quoting AaronPriest
{quote} 5ers and CTI give you 4x or 5x scaling on level 2, not just 2x, and I think that changes things a bit with that big boost.
Yes, it still looks good at that point. However, from there, you need 10% profit with 5% DD and they double you. So every 200% you mmake, they increase only 100%. By the 3rd scale, your personal account is close to double what you'd have with CTI.
As I explained a couple of days ago, there will NEVER BE AN INSTANT FUNDING MODEL beneficial to the trader.
The model simply cannot simutaneously offer profit to the firm AND value to the trader.
  • #15,306
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:31am Apr 24, 2023 5:31am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Looking at 40k instant (just quick looking here, so maybe some mistakes): 1. Draw-down is 6% while target for scaling is 10%, which means you will need to flip the account 1.666666666 times in order to scale up with each level. 2. Buy-in is $850. In order to receive 100% payout, you will need to scale up to level 7. 3. In order to scale up to level 7, you will need to flip your account at least 9.999999999 times in a row without going bust. 4. If you flip $850 in a personal account 9.999999999 times, you will have approximately 870k and...
All I can say here is EXACTLY.
  • #15,307
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:33am Apr 24, 2023 5:33am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} I don't understand what is for you to "flip" my personal account. In the 5ers I need to make 10% profit to scale. In my personal account what mean to flip 10 times?
You do not need to make 10% to scale.......if DD is 5%, you need 200% to scale, if it is 10%, you need 100% to scale....flipping one's own personal account means doubling (100%)
  • #15,308
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:35am Apr 24, 2023 5:35am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} MFFx is already in 8cap, unless they have a dual choice that I'm not aware
Thank you for your response.
  • #15,309
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:35am Apr 24, 2023 5:35am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} All I can say here is EXACTLY.
One more word....EXHAUSTING. I give, white flag, trade what you want people. I will not comment another time on this. It is basic math, you either grasp it or you don't
  • #15,310
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:37am Apr 24, 2023 5:37am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} of course MFF is high quality. I forgot your trading style and instruments, if you remember me I can tell what I remember of the 3 E8 is good for forex and crypto and may oil-gold but for indexes the worse MFF is good for indices and oil-gold, forex wider spreads, while crypto no trading on weekend and high spread 5ers should have decent spread on forex, for indices I forgot we should have some here posting their spread because I forgot about it, while no crypto-oil trading for now but they are going to add soon.
Forex only & short to med term trading style. Rarely hold overnight. Thank you.
  • #15,311
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:37am Apr 24, 2023 5:37am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Looking at 40k instant (just quick looking here, so maybe some mistakes): 1. Draw-down is 6% while target for scaling is 10%, which means you will need to flip the account 1.666666666 times in order to scale up with each level. 2. Buy-in is $850. In order to receive 100% payout, you will need to scale up to level 7. 3. In order to scale up to level 7, you will need to flip your account at least 9.999999999 times in a row without going bust. 4. If you flip $850 in a personal account 9.999999999 times, you will have approximately 870k and...
You mean, I would only have 794K MORE IN MY PERSONAL ACCOUNT????????? Nah, give me the instant funding........
  • #15,312
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:38am Apr 24, 2023 5:38am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Was really hoping that this discussion had run its course. Nonetheless, the scenario that you describe is a poor way to make your argument. This is similar to comparing apples to oranges. You might as well say: "okay, let's take a $150 account against a $200 account and keep opening trades to see which one will go bust first". If you give yourself additional padding on the personal account to serve as stop-out protection, then you will not be able to compete if you are on an instant account. That's literally all you have to do. Over the...
It actually describes a normal trading situation much better than trying to trade with 10 pip SL trade by trade. Stop-outs and margin calls cannot be ignored in normal trading. That's why you cannot use the same risk settings on both. Even if you make it $200 and $200 the own account will hit stop-out and or margin call at an early stage preventing you from opening new trades whereas this will not happen with a prop account. I have no interest in continuing to discuss this matter further with you.
  • #15,313
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:41am Apr 24, 2023 5:41am
Ok thanks I understood.
in holiday till end of November
  • #15,314
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:46am Apr 24, 2023 5:46am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} It actually describes a normal trading situation much better than trying to trade with 10 pip SL trade by trade. Stop-outs and margin calls cannot be ignored in normal trading. That's why you cannot use the same risk settings on both. Even if you make it $200 and $200 the own account will hit stop-out and or margin call at an early stage preventing you from opening new trades whereas this will not happen with a prop account. I have no interest in continuing to discuss this matter further with you.
Forget the 10 pip SL, not sure where you even pulled that number from...... use 50, 70, 100, 1000 whatever you'd like. The point is THE RISK per trade (regardless of your SL) will be exactly the same in the instant funding vs. the personal account. If you have $800 in a personal account and an $800 "max loss" with a firm, how can it be different? How are you magically making that $800 be more than it actually is? Actually, in most cases, it csan be a bit higher in the personal account as some of these firms charge more in fee than DD allowed. The scaling is a complete mirage, making 10% with 5% DD is 200% , most scale you 100% when you have made 200%, and then on top they keep 30-50%.
  • #15,315
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:46am Apr 24, 2023 5:46am
Quoting pipmaster77
You mean, I would only have 794K MORE IN MY PERSONAL ACCOUNT????????? Nah, give me the instant funding........
-

To be fair, you would probably be withdrawing profits along the way with an instant account, but you could do the same thing with a personal account. The end result is relatively the same... only, once you reach the impossible goal on instant of flipping your account 10+ times in a row, you are still giving 50% of your profits away in perpetuity (in most cases) without getting scaled up any further, all while having to adhere to strict draw-down rules and probably can only withdraw once a week, at most. Not to mention the fact that half of the money that you keep inside of the personal account each time is actually yours haha.

If you took your initial 1k and just spent time to double it so that you could use it to serve as stop-out protection on your personal account, then you will have exactly what the instant account offers you, except, you will fair much better over the long-term.

Quoting TraderTero
Even if you make it $200 and $200 the own account will hit stop-out and or margin call at an early stage preventing you from opening new trades whereas this will not happen with a prop account. ... I have no interest in continuing to discuss this matter further with you.
-See above. And by all means, feel free to cease discussion of this topic.
  • #15,316
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:49am Apr 24, 2023 5:49am
Quoting AaronPriest
{quote} For my trading style, I don't like the 30 days of MFF, otherwise they have the best drawdown vs. target of all of them. E8 extended doubles the time to 60 days for Phase 1 and 120 days for Phase 2 and I really, really like that in comparison. MFFX will probably be my next account instead of E8 though because they now offer unlimited time for both phases, and until the end of this week they are offering 10% drawdown instead of 8% on the 250K account (but not the others). I hope they make that standard and apply it to all accounts eventually....
Thank you for your response.
  • #15,317
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:50am Apr 24, 2023 5:50am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Forget the 10 pip SL, not sure where you even pulled that number from...... use 50, 70, 100, 1000 whatever you'd like. The point is THE RISK per trade (regardless of your SL) will be exactly the same in the instant funding vs. the personal account. If you have $800 in a personal account and an $800 "max loss" with a firm, how can it be different? How are you magically making that $800 be more than it actually is? Actually, in most cases, it csan be a bit higher in the personal account as some of these firms charge more in fee than DD allowed....
and the 8% max loss on your 2000 stock net account is $160, not $200, that 20% does make a huge difference.
  • #15,318
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:55am Apr 24, 2023 5:55am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} and the 8% max loss on your 2000 stock net account is $160, not $200, that 20% does make a huge difference.
It doesn't make a difference if we use $160/$160 or $200/$200. The fact is that I won't have the same amount of funds available for trading in my personal account as on the prop firm account.
  • #15,319
  • Apr 24, 2023 5:59am Apr 24, 2023 5:59am
Quoting TraderTero
It doesn't make a difference if we use $160/$160 or $200/$200. The fact is that I won't have the same amount of funds available for trading in my personal account as on the prop firm account.
-The benefit does not outweigh the alternative. If you take that $160 and double it on a personal account, so that you have the same stop-out protection, you are going to be much better off in the long run trading a personal account. The only benefit that the instant provides is short-lived (with many aspects quickly becoming down-sides). The rest is an illusion in most cases.

Instant is for suckers. Great for firms, though.
  • #15,320
  • Apr 24, 2023 6:00am Apr 24, 2023 6:00am
Quoting TraderTero
{quote} It doesn't make a difference if we use $160/$160 or $200/$200. The fact is that I won't have the same amount of funds available for trading in my personal account as on the prop firm account.
You used $200/$160. But read your statement.........you put the same numbers side by side $160/$160 and $200/$200 and yet in the same sentence say they won't be the same....once again, where is the magic that makes the $160 or the $200 be more than what it actually is?
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