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  • #14,381
  • Mar 8, 2023 3:01am Mar 8, 2023 3:01am
Quoting Capablanca
Saw this in the prop group. Not sure if it's legitim. {image} Edit: apparently seems legit {image}
What else do they expect from traders other then betting? Flipping the account in 30 days has never been serious trading. Promoting all the 5-6digit payouts and then penalizing traders for using the full leverage they offer is a hypocrisy in it's purest form
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #14,382
  • Mar 8, 2023 6:12am Mar 8, 2023 6:12am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} What else do they expect from traders other then betting? Flipping the account in 30 days has never been serious trading. Promoting all the 5-6digit payouts and then penalizing traders for using the full leverage they offer is a hypocrisy in it's purest form
to make 10% in 20 sessions is not betting and gambling for who doesn't have a real trading successful plan, let's say a scalper that try to grind every day risking large drawdowns, and how many people failed to reach that 10% target?

who knows the true story if that trader was a better or a one doing with consistency profits risking as all the others.. in evaluation passing the challenges in 1 short with 1:100 leverage

unique way to show consistency is to be a swing trader or to have a real good EA that nobody is using and leave it running.
in holiday till end of November
  • #14,383
  • Mar 8, 2023 6:36am Mar 8, 2023 6:36am
Yesterday some swing trader that had the stop loss on that high have seen a double top that, theoretically was not stopped at brokers like pepperstone or eightcap, while vantage that enlarge the spreads more often stopped that level and also ftmo-mff like platforms with spreads volatile should have stopped it.

Was a rare case of market going to stop for less of 1 pip an important key level

Don't know if it worth to put a stop loss of 5 pips higher to avoid these cases or just leave it. After the stop you could however enter again in the trade because generated a new sell signal.

However as rule 1 pip more to avoid to get stopped for just 1-2 points is better.

Eightcap made the big at 1 point less of the the high, so 2 points less of stop loss, so assuming 0 spread on eurusd in that moment the trade was not stopped while if they enlarged the spread to 2 points, stopped out. The chart show the bid price I guess so don't know what happened to eightcap but for sure some of you knows if happened there something.

I add how you could enter again if stopped, with a target always 1:5 as RR and 1:10, who knows if getting stopped out you could decide to risk less % but target a double ratio.
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in holiday till end of November
  • #14,384
  • Mar 8, 2023 6:46am Mar 8, 2023 6:46am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} to make 10% in 20 sessions is not betting and gambling for who doesn't have a real trading successful plan, let's say a scalper that try to grind every day risking large drawdowns, and how many people failed to reach that 10% target? who knows the true story if that trader was a better or a one doing with consistency profits risking as all the others.. in evaluation passing the challenges in 1 short with 1:100 leverage unique way to show consistency is to be a swing trader or to have a real good EA that nobody is using and leave it running....
It is gambling. Remember - you're not making 10% but 100% (10% profit when you only have 10% DD)

And that's only a beginning. Look at what those firms - FTMO included - celebrate and advertise. 40k, 60k 100k profit made with 100k account in 14 days (or maybe 30). What else is this other than a pure gambling? Even 40k out of a 100k account means +400% (40/10). So what they reward and celebrate is gambling. Yet when you try to make it they start threatening you or even ban you for good. That's why I call them hypocrites but maybe i should rather say impostors or cheaters or fraudsters or maybe ...Prop Firms...?
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #14,385
  • Mar 8, 2023 6:55am Mar 8, 2023 6:55am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} It is gambling. Remember - you're not making 10% but 100% (10% profit when you only have 10% DD) And that's only a beginning. Look at what those firms - FTMO included - celebrate and advertise. 40k, 60k 100k profit made with 100k account in 14 days (or maybe 30). What else is this other than a pure gambling? Even 40k out of a 100k account means +400% (40/10). So what they reward and celebrate is gambling. Yet when you try to make it they start threatening you or even ban you for good. That's why I call them hypocrites but maybe i should...
unlicensed betting, at the end one day regulators will say that they are accepting people's deposits for betting-gambling, is the same than to deposit 1000$ and bet on a sport team win 1:5 or 1:10, plus unlicensed introducing brokerage, because they are getting paid lots of dollars per lot... with the excuse of larger spread to offer liquidity.

And the fun is, that even if they are simulating unlicensed activities they can fool all and make advertising, but it would require a license.
Than it is not so hard to get, so they could have it, but they don't want it till somebody would fine them and force them to have it... it's just a simple license, nothing hard to get.
in holiday till end of November
  • #14,386
  • Mar 8, 2023 7:09am Mar 8, 2023 7:09am
Quoting forexbali
{quote} unlicensed betting, at the end one day regulators will say that they are accepting people's deposits for betting-gambling, is the same than to deposit 1000$ and bet on a sport team win 1:5 or 1:10, plus unlicensed introducing brokerage, because they are getting paid lots of dollars per lot... with the excuse of larger spread to offer liquidity. And the fun is, that even if they are simulating unlicensed activities they can fool all and make advertising, but it would require a license. Than it is not so hard to get, so they could have it,...
That's why CFD trading is called Spread Betting in the UK
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #14,387
  • Mar 8, 2023 8:17am Mar 8, 2023 8:17am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} It is gambling. Remember - you're not making 10% but 100% (10% profit when you only have 10% DD) And that's only a beginning. Look at what those firms - FTMO included - celebrate and advertise. 40k, 60k 100k profit made with 100k account in 14 days (or maybe 30). What else is this other than a pure gambling? Even 40k out of a 100k account means +400% (40/10). So what they reward and celebrate is gambling. Yet when you try to make it they start threatening you or even ban you for good. That's why I call them hypocrites but maybe i should...
Anybody with some experience knows that most of those guys won't be in the list of the next month payouts because the risk of ruin on those numbers is basically 1.
  • #14,388
  • Mar 8, 2023 9:48am Mar 8, 2023 9:48am
Quoting Vitore
That's why I call them hypocrites but maybe i should rather say impostors or cheaters or fraudsters or maybe ...Prop Firms...?
-I think, without knowing the whole truth of the situation, we cannot say this.

If we assume that the trader is just insanely profitable and is maxing out leverage all of the time while using a good system, and FTMO just decided to do this, then we can absolutely say this.

However, if the trader is obviously just gambling by taking one trade on every new account, maxing out leverage and swinging for the fences in hopes of getting lucky, then waiting until payout, or opening new accounts if the account gets blown and repeating the process etc., then maybe this is a reasonable move by FTMO. No prop firm should want traders like that.

Chances are, if the trader is actually doing something stupid like this, then he/she probably will not publicly disclose that.

But yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy with these firms, even so.
  • #14,389
  • Mar 8, 2023 10:09am Mar 8, 2023 10:09am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I think, without knowing the whole truth of the situation, we cannot say this. If we assume that the trader is just insanely profitable and is maxing out leverage all of the time while using a good system, and FTMO just decided to do this, then we can absolutely say this. However, if the trader is obviously just gambling by taking one trade on every new account, maxing out leverage and swinging for the fences in hopes of getting lucky, then waiting until payout, or opening new accounts if the account gets blown and repeating the process...
I'm inclined to agree. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these people who get their accounts closed are still developing traders who haven't figured out their risk model yet, and are doing stupid things like casino-minded penny stock "traders". If someone is still a developing trader they shouldn't be trying to get funded, plain and simple. Now that's not to say that some prop firms aren't sketchy, I'm sure some are, just like some banks on Wall Street are sketchy (as history has proven), but without an understanding of exactly how the traders who get their accounts closed are trading, I'm not automatically giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Virtue signaling is for those who are devoid of actual virtue
  • #14,390
  • Mar 8, 2023 10:14am Mar 8, 2023 10:14am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I think, without knowing the whole truth of the situation, we cannot say this. If we assume that the trader is just insanely profitable and is maxing out leverage all of the time while using a good system, and FTMO just decided to do this, then we can absolutely say this. However, if the trader is obviously just gambling by taking one trade on every new account, maxing out leverage and swinging for the fences in hopes of getting lucky, then waiting until payout, or opening new accounts if the account gets blown and repeating the process...
I agree. However, IT NEEDS TO BE IN THE RULES. If you cannot hit target with 1 trade, they must disclose that. Many firms disclose this and you know going in......consistency rules, can't trade mini lots after hitting target, only a certain % of profit can come from one trade/day. THEY CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
The firms that don't disclose it upfront and then change it later simply don't want their revenue from new business to go down but then don't want to pay when you trade by the rules they have established??????
If you don't want gamblers, make the leverage 1:5, 1:10, of course they know what would happen to new signups. FTMO shows their hand more and more these days....their business model is heavily reliant on fees.
With all of that being said, I have NEVER personally had an issue with them. So I also believe a lot of folks bring the trouble on themselves.
  • #14,391
  • Mar 8, 2023 11:24am Mar 8, 2023 11:24am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Good luck! I looked into it when they launched but the max loss is a trailing one so I gave up.
Thx.

Yea. It's a crappy offer. Also, I can't trade news which is annoying. I can barely get my shoes on the right feet in the morning and they expect me to keep track of news events?
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #14,392
  • Mar 8, 2023 11:41am Mar 8, 2023 11:41am
Quoting Butters
I'm inclined to agree. I wouldn't be surprised if most of these people who get their accounts closed are still developing traders who haven't figured out their risk model yet, and are doing stupid things like casino-minded penny stock "traders". If someone is still a developing trader they shouldn't be trying to get funded, plain and simple.
-To be clear, I am not referring to newbie traders that are trying to develop their skills. That is much different than a gambler that is just using prop firms to replace the lottery because the odds are better.
  • #14,393
  • Edited 12:05pm Mar 8, 2023 11:45am | Edited 12:05pm
Quoting pipmaster77
I agree. However, IT NEEDS TO BE IN THE RULES. If you cannot hit target with 1 trade, they must disclose that.
-We are not talking about the same thing. I am not referring to the challenge phases, but funded. In this case, it seems that the trader is getting funded, but is still going against what FTMO has requested that he change. And I do believe that most firms have terms written in such a way that if your trading is not beneficial for the company, then they reserve the right to terminate services with you. The trader has clearly been warned already, yet refuses to listen.

I think, if a trader is actually gambling, and is just trying to get lucky once funded by going all-in on one trade and then waiting until payout, rinsing and repeating with new accounts etc., then that is not beneficial for the company and they should weed those people out. They are not trading, they are just playing a more expensive lottery that offers much better odds. I do not think that FTMO has hidden anything when it comes to this kind of thing.

My whole point is that we simply do not know, and that there are cases where a firm would be justified in taking this sort of action, in my opinion.
  • #14,394
  • Mar 8, 2023 12:10pm Mar 8, 2023 12:10pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-We are not talking about the same thing. I am not referring to the challenge phases, but funded. In this case, it seems that the trader is getting funded, but is still going against what FTMO has requested that he change. And I do believe that most firms have terms written in such a way that if your trading is not beneficial for the company, then they reserve the right to terminate services with you. The trader has clearly been warned already, yet refuses to listen. I think, if a trader is actually gambling, and is just trying to get lucky...
Yes, we do not know. As I mentioned, I have never had an issue in over two years. However, my point still remains....they ENCOURAGE the gambling in the challenge and then DISCOURAGE it once funded.
The hypocrisy makes us all look like idiots. If they truly were "looking for good traders", they should be kissing the traders ass if he can flip an account in the challenge and then KEEP DOING IT once funded.
Just call it what it is, so we don't feel like a bunch of idiots.....You are going to gamble your "fee" to flip an account in 30 days, 95% of you will fail......however, the 5% that pass, we give you 20x your fee, refund your fee and then request that you trade responsibly.

I signed up knowing exactly what it is, and I'm very happy. So happy, I joined 3 more firms

I guess there would be a decline in new challenges?
  • #14,395
  • Mar 8, 2023 12:15pm Mar 8, 2023 12:15pm
Quoting pipmaster77
However, my point still remains....they ENCOURAGE the gambling in the challenge and then DISCOURAGE it once funded. The hypocrisy makes us all look like idiots.
-There is a lot of hypocrisy, for sure. But I do not necessarily agree with this statement. I do not equate all high-risk activity with gambling. Many traders here can pass the challenges without gambling. There is a difference between taking calculated risk and opening a position and just hoping for the best with max leverage etc..

Quoting pipmaster77
I signed up knowing exactly what it is, and I'm very happy.
-Yes, you know what you signed up for. We all accept the trade-off because it allows us to get funded very fast and easy. So, no point in complaining about the hypocrisy if you are willing to play the game.
  • #14,396
  • Mar 8, 2023 12:40pm Mar 8, 2023 12:40pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-There is a lot of hypocrisy, for sure. But I do not necessarily agree with this statement. I do not equate all high-risk activity with gambling. Many traders here can pass the challenges without gambling. There is a difference between taking calculated risk and opening a position and just hoping for the best with max leverage etc.. {quote}-Yes, you know what you signed up for. We all accept the trade-off because it allows us to get funded very fast and easy. So, no point in complaining about the hypocrisy if you are willing to play the game....
The thing is that showing someone that made 40 or 50% in one month is passing the wrong message, specially without detailing stats.
We all know that 50% a month is unsustainable and either it was a one off (a very good swing trade with good risk, for example, but not repeatable in the next months) or it's someone that traded with high risk and if continues to do the same will die very soon.
  • #14,397
  • Edited 1:20pm Mar 8, 2023 1:00pm | Edited 1:20pm
Quoting Capablanca
The thing is that showing someone that made 40 or 50% in one month is passing the wrong message
-I do not disagree. This is why I say that there is a lot of hypocrisy. But it does not matter. We accept it.

But in the case of this recent trader, we do not know the circumstances. We do not know if he was using a lot of leverage with a repeatable trading system, or, if he was actually just gambling and hoping for the best while maxing out his leverage etc..

We do know that we was warned already and refused to listen. It seems unlikely that FTMO is making this decision purely based on the amount of leverage that was being used.

As I say, if they are, then they should be criticized for it, absolutely. I just think that there could be more to the story.

We can see how traders were quickly jumping to conclusions about this, without knowing the full details. I just think that it is better to remain objective and consider all possibilities.
  • #14,398
  • Mar 9, 2023 2:47pm Mar 9, 2023 2:47pm
Hello,

An interesting info taken in the Prop Firm Telegram regarding Blue Gardian (promising propfirm - or not)

" Blue Guardian, is here with new trading conditions that could make any trader successful in their trading journey. This team of skilled and experienced traders came up with a very relaxed trading conditions you can't afford to ignore. I say this is the true meaning of Rebranding. With their Guardian Protector you will never have to worry about hitting your daily loss limit again! The optional built-in equity protector allows traders to limit the amount they can lose in a day and ensure they stay comfortable and protected. They offer the choice to block you from trading until the next day to stop you overtrading ! "

Hoping that this new concept will spread elsewhere
  • #14,399
  • Mar 9, 2023 2:49pm Mar 9, 2023 2:49pm
News from Finotive :

Dear Trader,
As you know we are always striving to improve our service to ensure that traders have the best experience with us. With that in mind, we have 3 exciting updates to announce:

1. Extension of Inactivity Rule

Previously if a trader did not place a trade for 14 days, this would be a breach of the inactivity rule. We have listened to our community and agree that an extension of this to 30 gives much more freedom to the trader as they do not feel pressured to keep trading.

This extension also means over holiday periods, traders can decide to take a break for up to 30 days with no repercussions.


2. Modification of Risk Management Rule Outcomes
Up until now, breaching the risk management rules within the Responsible Trading Policy when funded would result in a temporary reduction of profit split to 25%, and temporary scaling prohibition. In extreme cases where traders show no improvement after multiple breaches, further action could be taken such as payout rejection and even on rare occasions account termination.
The problem we have had is that a small handful of individuals took advantage of this system by basically seeing this as a guaranteed 25% split regardless of the risk management used. The responsible trading policy, and in particular the risk management rules are in place to not only protect our capital, but also to help encourage traders to manage their risk which is proven to reduce the failure rate.
In order to counter the gambling traders who are taking advantage of this system, we have slightly modified the outcomes of breaching the rules:
a. Rather than a blanket reduction in profit split to 25%, we will now reduce the profit split between 50% and 100% of the initial split. This means that if your original split is 75%, we may reduce this as little as 50% to a 37.5%, or as much as 100% giving 0% profit split.

This gives us more control in reducing traders based on the severity of the breach.

b. We will now have the option to reduce the account leverage if needed.

There is a pattern amongst the gambling traders which is to massively over-leverage their accounts to try to win large sums of money with no regard for our risk management rules. A logical way for us to counter this behaviour is to reduce the buying power of the account by lowering the leverage.

Again, this gives us more control in reducing traders based on the severity of the breach.
These 2 modifications now allow us to impose firmer restrictions on gamblers and repeat offenders, whilst giving grace to the traders who may have made an honest mistake.

3. Removal of 3 Consecutive Losing Months Rule

Finally, we will remove the rule which states that if an account is negative for 3 consecutive months it will be closed.

The updated Terms will go into effect for existing users on March 9, 2023. Beginning on that date, you will need to agree to the updated Terms to continue trading your account.
  • #14,400
  • Mar 10, 2023 12:54am Mar 10, 2023 12:54am
A warning about TFF payouts via crypto (ESDT). For a 2K to 3K payout they will deduct you between 55 and 65 USDT for fee.

What happens in reality, looking at the blockchain, if that they process a USDT transfer for a dozen traders simultaneously and the TOTAL cost (gas fee) for those dozen transactions is, for example, aprox 35 USD (in gweis).

But they change way more than 35 USDT to EACH trader (so in reality they are charging like 420 for something that costs 35). This is stealing so beware about withdrawing from them in crypto.
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