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  • #12,481
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:41pm Nov 17, 2022 1:41pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I wouldn't necessarily say that the rule is hidden, as nearly all prop firms have something in their terms that state that they have the right to terminate an account at their own discretion (among other things). However, it is not common to see such rules actively enforced. When you have very clear rules to follow (draw-down), and you start seeing firms closing accounts for other rules (risk), it starts to become problematic. Because the draw-down is the risk. This is the amount that the firm has chosen to put up and risk, so having additional...
It simply clarifies, beyond the shadow of a doubt.....THEY ARE NOT COPYING SHIT, otherwise, they would welcome the huge payouts.
  • #12,482
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:43pm Nov 17, 2022 1:43pm
Quoting TrAndy1
It seems FTMO is leaving the crowd in the dark with their new hidden rule on banning "gamblers" or traders taking high lot sizes. Such a hidden rule is usually red flag.
Hi, can you point me to that hidden rule please?
  • #12,483
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:43pm Nov 17, 2022 1:43pm
Quoting pipmaster77
True, but limiting leverage would require lower target and/or longer time to pass challenges. This would be too big a disruption to the business model. What I'm sure they really would prefer to do is provide the 100:1 in the challenge and say OK, here ya go.....5:1 on the funded.
-Exactly right. And I think that is how it would have to be approached; allow high leverage for challenge in order to achieve high targets, but then lower leverage on funded. Not saying that I agree with it, but I could live with it, especially if it meant not having 'hidden' rules that could get all of my accounts terminated because I decided to have a high-risk account in the mix.
  • #12,484
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:44pm Nov 17, 2022 1:44pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I wouldn't necessarily say that the rule is hidden, as nearly all prop firms have something in their terms that state that they have the right to terminate an account at their own discretion (among other things). However, it is not common to see such rules actively enforced. When you have very clear rules to follow (draw-down), and you start seeing firms closing accounts for other rules (risk), it starts to become problematic. Because the draw-down is the risk. This is the amount that the firm has chosen to put up and risk, so having additional...
Hidden in terms it is nowhere written down, is not actually meant. For me hidden rules means there is room for interpretation and you do not know the whole interpretation on this rule. In such a case the traders need to find out where are the exact limits and the clear interpretation on all examples. FTMO does not do good job in the latest gambling rule. I can remember TFF saying that they do not like trading behavior on trustpilot for banning lifetime traders, especially on higher payouts!
  • #12,485
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:47pm Nov 17, 2022 1:47pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} It simply clarifies, beyond the shadow of a doubt.....THEY ARE NOT COPYING SHIT, otherwise, they would welcome the huge payouts.
Exactly. And that is the problem with their big lot size traders. They did not copy the large lot sizes, otherwise where is the problem ? Again this is not good behavior. When they always loose that is of course no problem, but when those traders accidentally make huge bucks, then they fear future payouts as their new problems ???
  • #12,486
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:48pm Nov 17, 2022 1:48pm
Quoting Sangui
{quote} Hi, can you point me to that hidden rule please?
It is said on the link some posts ago about the new hidden rule banning gamblers. There is a link on FTMO website explaining this, but not in very clear logical manner...
  • #12,487
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:52pm Nov 17, 2022 1:52pm
So can anyone explain here the new gambling ban procedure of FTMO ? Because no one wants of course be banned on all accounts lifetime, just by accident meant ???
  • #12,488
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:54pm Nov 17, 2022 1:54pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Yes. I have always said that the challenges were hypocritical. Not only in terms of what good trading should actually look like, but the fact that they set those terms and even showcase big monthly earners, all the while, trying to preach about good risk management and what it means to be a good trader etc.. It's all hogwash, but it is a trade-off that I gladly accept for reasoning that I have described before. Simply put, I would rather have the option to get funded as quickly as possible, in lieu of trading on a demo account for 6 months...
I agree 100%. I take it for what it is, I know what I am getting into. Trade off for me is worth it as well. I am able to adjust risk to pass challenges and trade very stress free once funded. However, making up rules as you go and/or denying payouts and banning accounts is always a cause for concern.
  • #12,489
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:55pm Nov 17, 2022 1:55pm
Just imagine any FX broker would ban or terminate the account when a trader makes big lot size trades? What? You see how ridiculous it gets now, only need to copycat.
  • #12,490
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:57pm Nov 17, 2022 1:57pm
Quoting Sangui
{quote} Hi, can you point me to that hidden rule please?
Can't....that's what he means by "hidden". They will let you know when you violate it though.
  • #12,491
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:58pm Nov 17, 2022 1:58pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I agree 100%. I take it for what it is, I know what I am getting into. Trade off for me is worth it as well. I am able to adjust risk to pass challenges and trade very stress free once funded. However, making up rules as you go and/or denying payouts and banning accounts is always a cause for concern.
You do not need to worry at all with your trading style. BUT, when FTMO kicks in with such a new rule, they are not happy with their payout structure and underlying risk, otherwise it does not make sense. And IF FTMO makes such a new rule as one of the biggest players, then what about all the other prop firms? Structural problem?
  • #12,492
  • Nov 17, 2022 1:59pm Nov 17, 2022 1:59pm
Quoting pipmaster77
It simply clarifies, beyond the shadow of a doubt.....THEY ARE NOT COPYING SHIT, otherwise, they would welcome the huge payouts.
-Yes. You are probably right. The exception to this might be when a firm is selectively copying trades. So, having a high-risk trader that you know is going to eventually fail hard would be a difficult decision to copy.


Quoting TrAndy1
Hidden in terms it is nowhere written down, is not actually meant. For me hidden rules means there is room for interpretation and you do not know the whole interpretation on this rule.
-For me, a hidden rule is similar to what we saw The Prop Trading pull, where they clearly have a specific rule about multiple accounts that is not written anywhere. In the case of FTMO banning gamblers and claiming high-risk as the reasoning, this is not so much hidden, as it is outlined in their terms that they may do this, but it is ambiguous because the specifics are not clearly-defined, allowing them to make up their own rules about it as they go.

This is not good for traders, for obvious reasons, because we cannot know if we are operating within their 'risk parameters'. Even though there are clear draw-down rules that define what they are willing to risk/lose, we could still lose the account if our trading does not correlate with their undefined risk appetite.

These kinds of tactics can be used for nefarious purposes. As an example, as traders, we understand that FTMO and other firms have such clauses in place, in order to protect themselves from bad actors. This allows them a legal 'out' if they encounter a trader that is somehow cheating or causing disruptions to the flow of business.

However, when such tactics are seemingly used to blacklist legitimate traders (even if they are reckless), then this poses all kinds of questions regarding good business practices, ethics, legitimacy and transparency etc..
  • #12,493
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:00pm Nov 17, 2022 2:00pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You do not need to worry at all with your trading style. BUT, when FTMO kicks in with such a new rule, they are not happy with their payout structure and underlying risk, otherwise it does not make sense. And IF FTMO makes such a new rule as one of the biggest players, then what about all the other prop firms? Structural problem?
Yes, that is my concern....the sustainability of their model.
  • #12,494
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:04pm Nov 17, 2022 2:04pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Can't....that's what he means by "hidden". They will let you know when you violate it though.
Has someone been affected by this hidden rule? If so who/where?

This is news to me as well, although my style is far from the yolo gambler.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #12,495
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:05pm Nov 17, 2022 2:05pm
I know I'm not a gambler but I am a big lots scalper so for sure can be considered a gambler by them...
  • #12,496
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:06pm Nov 17, 2022 2:06pm
Actually it is not clear if that gambling rule is meant per ticket or overall and absolute or relatively. Because you can have "big lots" on 3 lot size trade in 10k account, instead of only 120 lots on 400k merged account. But the new limit is 50 lots on al FX exposure at FTMO per single ticket. So 50 lots is always gambling ? Or without any tight stoploss or without any SL and less than 2% or 3% risking per trade ? Everybody sees there are many questions here. Or is overall lot size in addition meant too??
  • #12,497
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:09pm Nov 17, 2022 2:09pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Can't....that's what he means by "hidden". They will let you know when you violate it though.
Some hidden rules in other propfirms are in the terms and conditions not in the challenge rules so you don't see them when purchasing, that's why I asked, but thanks you for answering.
  • #12,498
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:09pm Nov 17, 2022 2:09pm
Quoting Sangui
I know I'm not a gambler but I am a big lots scalper so for sure can be considered a gambler by them...
But a scalper is not a gambler per definition. If you have a good risk management, what is the problem with FTMO ? Their new "hidden" rules leave much interpretation.
  • #12,499
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:12pm Nov 17, 2022 2:12pm
Enforcing such terms that are not clearly-defined is not good for business. Risk is defined already by the draw-down limits. If they want more restrictions on top of that, then most traders will not deem such a backwards-stepping decision to be overly favorable, but would certainly need to have those new terms clearly defined. This is a must for us traders because managing risk is in our job description, and we cannot effectively do that if we are not aware of what the risk parameters actually are.

Feel free to forward this on to FTMO.
  • #12,500
  • Nov 17, 2022 2:12pm Nov 17, 2022 2:12pm
Quoting TrAndy1
But the new limit is 50 lots on al FX exposure at FTMO per single ticket.
Where did you find mention of this?
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
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