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  • #11,621
  • Oct 15, 2022 11:50am Oct 15, 2022 11:50am
Let’s say you want 20 K over 4 months with 1000 start money.

With own money you have to do daily 4% profit to reach 20 K at the end of 4 months.

With a prop trading. You have to do:

First month: 3% profit per day. (For 8% target, for 10% this is 3.5%)

Second month: 2% profit per day. (For 5% target)

3th and 4 th month: You need 2.2% profit per day.

The percentage of profit that you have to make is lower with a prop trading.

For the starters definetily not worth it as the chance of failure is very high.
And if you don’t need a high amount of money there is no reason to take the risk. But go for low percentage for long time to gain experience I think.
  • #11,622
  • Oct 15, 2022 12:28pm Oct 15, 2022 12:28pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} You are doing it wrong. Your examples are by far too simple. You need to factor Euler figure as I have done it. I have already done whole work. There is nothing to add.

Hmm, amazing argument. Might work for smart people. I am not that smart.
  • #11,623
  • Oct 15, 2022 12:38pm Oct 15, 2022 12:38pm
Quoting TrAndy1
In OFP terms and conditions it is describes exactly what they understand under gambling about the lot size consistency rule. There is no room for interpretation here. 5.9 Gambling Policy We consider a trader’s trading behaviour as “gambling” if it breaks any of the terms laid out in this policy by the Prop firm. Genuine traders, consistent traders, beginners, and advanced traders who use a method and a consistent style of trading are not prone to violating the gambling policy as laid out by the prop firm and understand that trading requires a method...
Thanks for posting I figured it must be in their TOS somewhere.

Still not for me. I may be building a swing position on a particular pair and also want to scalp that same pair with larger lot sizes. I only use firms where I don't have to think about any of this stuff.

However, I personally like their price model. I think it has decent value for an instant funding model.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #11,624
  • Edited 2:44pm Oct 15, 2022 2:11pm | Edited 2:44pm
Quoting TrAndy1
There is an easy solution for this lot size consistency rule. You only need to calculate your lowest trade lot size for any entry with your risk management rules, then you only need to multiply if for your largest trade size to get it conform. They do not count how many trades you have open with a certain lot size on any symbol. So if your lowest trade size is for example 1 lot, and then you want to enter with 5 lots on another trade. You only need to open 5 times 1 lot and voila you have your position size.
A requirement like this which forces anybody to do workarounds like described in your post is a big red flag.
Trader should be only involved and be eventually “find guilty” only for chosen risk, i.e., how many % of the equity or balance he/she risks per trade. Trade size or its multiplication itself does not signify anything. The company forcing this is toxic. We end up to have a workaround for this, and that, and the Day 3/7 and so on. Why? Trading should be only about trading. Why, the hell, anyone would be interested in checking, how many days per week I'm trading? It's silly, is not it? How many of such “workarounds” one can handle? 3, 5, 10? Is it sustainable long term?

Quoting TrAndy1
BE=Breakeven Attempt means if you need more than this number as attempts to achieve a funded account status (in average), then it does not make sense to follow this prop firm challenge for the trader. If your BE Profit per payout time period, usually 1 month, is higher or at least that percentage then own compounding on your own personal account also makes more sense pure mathematically expressed. The same with Breakeven Factor where the profit % is expressed to % DD as RRR factor. {image}
But you know that this model is incomplete, right? The fee and allowed DD is only one tiny part of the formula, as well as max allowed assessment days.
Where do you factor in things like spreads, commissions, average slippage, days, or hours when trading is allowed or disallowed, and all of that matched on personal trading style?
  • #11,625
  • Oct 15, 2022 2:44pm Oct 15, 2022 2:44pm
Quoting mcquak
{quote} But you know that this model is incomplete, right? The fee and allowed DD is only one tiny part of the formula, as well as max allowed assessment days. Where do you factor in things like spreads, commissions, average slippage, days, or hours when trading is allowed or disallowed, and all of that matched on personal trading style?
Feel free to post a more complete prop firm evaluation based on soft factors too. But it is more difficult as there is much more room for interpretation as it is subjective.
  • #11,626
  • Oct 15, 2022 2:52pm Oct 15, 2022 2:52pm
Quoting mcquak
Trading should be only about trading. Why, the hell, anyone would be interested in checking, how many days per week I'm trading? It's silly, is not it? How many of such “workarounds” one can handle? 3, 5, 10? Is it sustainable long term?
-I agree. And anyone siding with a firm that imposes such nonsense restrictions that are solely designed to 'trap traders' are only perpetuating the problem and sending the message that this kind of behavior is acceptable. It's not.

That said, there are other things to consider here. The biggest being that we are trading other people's money (in most cases). So, their money, their rules. We have to accept that. Fortunately, however, we have a choice in the matter, and we can trade with other firms that allow more freedom and flexibility.
  • #11,627
  • Oct 15, 2022 2:56pm Oct 15, 2022 2:56pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Feel free to post a more complete prop firm evaluation based on soft factors too. But it is more difficult as there is much more room for interpretation as it is subjective.
No, I'm not willing to do that. I'm being more than capable to do my due diligence myself. And I think that anybody, who wants to spend money for the evaluation, should be able to do the same.
I'm just trying to point out, that it's not possible to encompass all possible nuances in prop firms comparisons. Saying, this company is better than another because this formula is proving that, is oversimplification. Trading is not easy as trading the moving average crossovers. And the same applies for the prop firm choice. Your formula offers MA crossover, for someone it will work, but for many others it won't
  • #11,628
  • Oct 15, 2022 3:12pm Oct 15, 2022 3:12pm
Just be sure you do not consider prop firm offers with score less than 1 as it does not make sense. From prop firms with similar scores soft factors of course do matter.
  • #11,629
  • Oct 15, 2022 3:24pm Oct 15, 2022 3:24pm
And be sure you have a strategy with at least Sharpe Ratio of 3 as it does not make much sense to spend fees on too many attempts as there is lower limit boundary.
Or based on Reward-Risk-Ratio you should in region of close 1:1 or 1:2 so that you can pass the challenges. This is not required for instant funding models though.
  • #11,630
  • Oct 15, 2022 3:27pm Oct 15, 2022 3:27pm
Also any high risk traders or traders who want to be in the rankings of any prop firm or very high skilled traders based on RRR of greater than 3:1 monthly should not consider prop firm offers as it does make more sense to just compound on your own personal account. For every trader who has more than 20%,30% monthly in mind.
  • #11,631
  • Edited 3:53pm Oct 15, 2022 3:31pm | Edited 3:53pm
Again as prop firm challenges statistics have shown, prop firms make huge money from traders failed attempts. Just do not blindly allow you to feed only prop's offers.
  • #11,632
  • Oct 15, 2022 5:06pm Oct 15, 2022 5:06pm
Quoting Takisd
Why live account traders at prop firms fail more than phase 1. A lecture by Takisd. When a user has a set target to trade, they will stop at said target. When there is no target, they are more likely to over trade. Conclusion: Traders can luck their way to live accounts, but when they have to trade a month, they fail. Live is by far the hardest part of the challenges. Its when your limits aren't defined, to think otherwise is a fault.
I agree. At the end it is the trader mostly "against himself".
  • #11,633
  • Oct 16, 2022 6:06am Oct 16, 2022 6:06am
Here is the extended table sheet from prop firm scores for the smaller challenges. As you can see offers with score below 2.7 are not worth to be considered here.
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  • #11,634
  • Oct 16, 2022 6:29am Oct 16, 2022 6:29am
I will never understand this fascination finding every new prop firm with zero proof of actual payment history when these traders are likely not maxed out with either MFF or FTMO.... somebody make it make sense!
  • #11,635
  • Oct 16, 2022 6:37am Oct 16, 2022 6:37am
As anyone can see it from my last table sheet, the FTMO challenge offers for 25k and 10k are actually fraud because they are less favorable than just own compounding on your own personal account. You usually do not get this information just by looking at the numbers on FTMO website. And to compare other offers from MFF one must make an analysis as I have done it to compare different offers from prop firms too. So there are huge differences between offers from FTMO and MFF within themselves.
  • #11,636
  • Oct 16, 2022 6:47am Oct 16, 2022 6:47am
Quoting CableJ
I will never understand this fascination finding every new prop firm with zero proof of actual payment history when these traders are likely not maxed out with either MFF or FTMO.... somebody make it make sense!

There isnt much sense. Market is saturated so eventually bad things going to happen
  • #11,637
  • Oct 16, 2022 7:17am Oct 16, 2022 7:17am
I believe the crowd of traders at prop firms will figure out themselves over time if they can profit from them or not. So sooner or later the crowd will be more intelligent and more skilled. In addition when market gets saturated then it means there will be no new extra flow of unexperienced newbies feeding the prop firms. So in the end there will be much more pressure on the cost side of prop firms. This can lead to prop firm insolvencies in the end, or they start to play more tricks, being more scam artists to not payout and so on. The only possible solution would be a healthy market consolidation, so diversification for us traders among different props is important.
  • #11,638
  • Oct 16, 2022 7:22am Oct 16, 2022 7:22am
And a market consolidation always means less market participants so less prop firms on market, as they result in a concentration of fewer more profitable prop firms. But if MFF is financially a very solid prop firm, that means, because they have the highest score on all more reputable props, that all other props with less score have a higher chance to succeed, because if they have similar statistics (in relation to them not in absolute numbers of course), then thus have cost advantage over MFF here.
  • #11,639
  • Oct 16, 2022 7:31am Oct 16, 2022 7:31am
Quoting TrAndy1
I believe the crowd of traders at prop firms will figure out themselves over time if they can profit from them or not. So sooner or later the crowd will be more intelligent and more skilled.
-Maybe you give traders too much credit. I personally believe that most bad traders will keep coming back, taking challenges (or direct-funding) indefinitely in hopes of making it, especially when the barrier-to-entry is so low with some of these prop offerings. It seems clear to me that most of the traders signing up for these programs do not know what they are doing, and are likely just gambling. That kind of addiction can be strong.

Quoting TrAndy1
In addition when market gets saturated then it means there will be no new extra flow of unexperienced newbies feeding the prop firms. So in the end there will be much more pressure on the cost side of prop firms. This can lead to prop firm insolvencies in the end
-I do not believe this. Perhaps the flow of new traders will slow down, but it will never cease so long as these firms exist; there will always be new traders entering the market. And now, with so much accessibility to trading as well as more exposure via social media and the like, there has never been a more opportune moment for this; the conditions are just too favorable.

Quoting TrAndy1
diversification for us traders among different props is important.
-This, we can agree on.
  • #11,640
  • Oct 16, 2022 7:35am Oct 16, 2022 7:35am
Actually I do not believe any huge or bigger market consolidation even if market is (slightly or more) saturated. Because from my searches I find that most newer prop firms have a score below FTMO's score, so there is not much risk for them. There also many scam offers with scores below 1. Only very few have good scores. I would see no reason to fear. The very few exceptions of prop firms that have a higher score of MFF, which is proven solid firm with payout history, seems to be questionable.
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