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Anyone trading with a Prop firm 31 replies

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  • #11,541
  • Edited Oct 13, 2022 2:38am Oct 12, 2022 12:30pm | Edited Oct 13, 2022 2:38am
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} lol that fundedtradingplus relative drawdown is BS designed to minimize withdrawals by profitable traders
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if this is a minimal withdrawal, I need to bank with you !
p.s. not my withdrawal
  • #11,542
  • Oct 12, 2022 12:52pm Oct 12, 2022 12:52pm
Quoting NevFX
{quote} {image} if this is a minimal withdrawal, I need to bank with you !

or in this case, a bit more sigma to the side
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  • #11,543
  • Oct 12, 2022 1:22pm Oct 12, 2022 1:22pm
@LehmanBrotha the thing is, profitable traders should only be the ones looking for funding. So that bell curve is the 80% of traders that lose money with every broker and prop firm out there. The tail is where the rest of us live and why some can make the rules work. Plus if you were to go to the traditional bank prop firm when they existed, you would have a trailing drawdown, before being asked to leave. Anyone that has invested in any trader will also have something like a 10% DD in mind, which is why you see money chasing the hot funds, and those that are more seasoned have a lock-in period for deposits and withdrawals.
  • #11,544
  • Oct 12, 2022 1:57pm Oct 12, 2022 1:57pm
Quoting NevFX
@LehmanBrotha the thing is, profitable traders should only be the ones looking for funding. So that bell curve is the 80% of traders that lose money with every broker and prop firm out there. The tail is where the rest of us live and why some can make the rules work. Plus if you were to go to the traditional bank prop firm when they existed, you would have a trailing drawdown, before being asked to leave. Anyone that has invested in any trader will also have something like a 10% DD in mind, which is why you see money chasing the hot funds, and those...
normal distribution in this example pictures profitable, funded traders - by this point you should understand it. Where the mean is the average earnings from the prop firm and those standard deviations to the side are those making $100 from 5k accs and those making 150k from scaled-up accs.

What I have problem is that their website literally states if you make 50k of profit on a 100k acc you have to close the acc if you want to withdraw the full profits. Yes, it encourages more stable approach, but it also discourages withdrawing and exposes the trader to market risk. The longer you trade an ACC, the higher the chance it somehow, anyhow goes bust.

And, when that happens, you lose all the profit. Meanwhile, the acc on the broker that copied your trades gets a smaller hit and they pocket the difference between that and all the remaining profits.
  • #11,545
  • Oct 12, 2022 2:42pm Oct 12, 2022 2:42pm
Quoting LehmanBrotha
{quote} normal distribution in this example pictures profitable, funded traders - by this point you should understand it. Where the mean is the average earnings from the prop firm and those standard deviations to the side are those making $100 from 5k accs and those making 150k from scaled-up accs. What I have problem is that their website literally states if you make 50k of profit on a 100k acc you have to close the acc if you want to withdraw the full profits. Yes, it encourages more stable approach, but it also discourages withdrawing and exposes...

I really don't have a problem with a firm telling me to close an account if I remove all my risk. If I were a prop firm I would do the same under this model. I certainly wouldn't want to risk any of my $k's when the initial fee is in the $ hundreds.

The firms that I like and will emulate are the ones that 1. take some fee, 2. allow you to use that fee as DD, 3. return that fee when sufficient profits have been made by the firm having leveraged your positions.

But still, when the cushion of profits is fully withdrawn, I would want some more seed capital for any continuation under this model.
The other model is that you find some decent traders who are profitable over the long run and you actually give them some of your capital to trade with. I would personally invest my money with consistent traders. And that is what I assume the wealth management firm with my pension is doing.
  • #11,546
  • Oct 12, 2022 3:28pm Oct 12, 2022 3:28pm
Quoting NevFX
{quote} I really don't have a problem with a firm telling me to close an account if I remove all my risk.
I have a problem with that. Because I paid the fee, I put the sweat capital in that shows my consistency as a trader, and if I want to withdraw all the money and fill my bathtub and swim in the dollar bills - that is entirely my decision.
Initially, the risk management is 100% on you, afterwards, it is slowly transferred to them.



Quoting NevFX
{quote} I would personally invest my money with consistent traders. And that is what I assume the wealth management firm with my pension is doing.
oh boy. I used to sell research to large portfolio managers and tactical asset allocators. Trust me, many of them ain't doing that. They're playing golf with C-level executives and trading tips and favors.
  • #11,547
  • Oct 12, 2022 9:24pm Oct 12, 2022 9:24pm
Quoting NevFX
{quote} I remember when Rob Booker (Forex marketeer extraordinaire) was pushing Mr. Hertzberg. I doubt he wants to be reminded of this though
I've always been a fan of Rob Booker. I remember seeing Rob when he came to Australia (must have been around 2017). One of the best trading conferences I've attended. Not sure about the quality of the guidance he was providing, but damn he was funny. Was more standup comedy show than a forex conference. Was great. By the way, congratulations on your payout from Funded Trading Plus! That's awesome!
  • #11,548
  • Oct 12, 2022 9:43pm Oct 12, 2022 9:43pm
In order to complete a typical challenge in 30 days, you have to do the following:

1- Aim for a high return. Around 10%. In other words, 120% in a year.
2- Incur a very low dd amount. 2% to 5% is the usual range.

Those are really the main two items you have to really achieve. Everything else is just a sub category of these two.

In my opinion, there is a natural correlation between the two. The higher the earnings, the higher the risk and the possibility of more dd. So, you want to make money quickly, be ready to violate your dd limit and then you are out.

So, what do you do get around this? You aim to both have a high gain and a low dd.

Aha, that is what is going on. That is the name of the game. You are trying to defeat a natural correlation ratio. I just call it 'natural' because it makes sense that the higher the risk of something is, the higher are dangers associated with it and if it wasn't for the enticing reward, no one sane would take such high risks.

So, really, to discuss passing a challenge or just about anything of this nature, one has to find ways to minimize risk and maximize profit. That just sounds so cliché but those who do it, especially day in. day out, perfected that art. To put it another way, they can say: I am someone who can make great profits with very minimum risk.

To say that I'm someone who is trying to or want to or hope to, doesn't count. You gotta say I've done it, know how to and will do it when I want. It's kinda like saying I have found the holy grail. It is me. I am the holy grail. Lol.

Some here sure sound like that but are stuck with evaluating no name prop firms. I donno...I donno any more.
  • #11,549
  • Oct 12, 2022 9:51pm Oct 12, 2022 9:51pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Same offering as MFF but with EightCRAP as the broker. Can't find any reviews on them and can't find any reason to use them. Why stray from an established firm like MFF that has the exact same offering, its own server, and a track record of payments?
Can you please explain why EightCRAP is so crappy?
Is it possible it was crappy because of your trading style? For example if you scalp, it gave requotes?
Another example is brokers with bad swaps are naturally not good for long term traders.
Or do you think it is crappy for any style of trading?

I used ICMarkets and I found it to be the worst broker ever by far but it apparently has a lot of fans which is perplexing.
So, is it you or is it them?
  • #11,550
  • Oct 12, 2022 10:54pm Oct 12, 2022 10:54pm
Anyone having problems with DEEL placing money in PayPal? Its not placing my money in PayPal. 2 days now, without a payment transfer to PayPal, Deel has the money. Its been pretty good since February till now.
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those who can, do. those who cant, talk about those who can
  • #11,551
  • Oct 13, 2022 12:42am Oct 13, 2022 12:42am
Quoting gatorinla
Anyone having problems with DEEL placing money in PayPal? Its not placing my money in PayPal. 2 days now, without a payment transfer to PayPal, Deel has the money. Its been pretty good since February till now. {image}
Yes, it's global.
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Wise transfers as well as Revolut works normally.
  • #11,552
  • Oct 13, 2022 1:08am Oct 13, 2022 1:08am
Quoting TrAndy1
One must understand that basically all prop firms their challenges are asking for (a bit) more than 100% flip of your account size based on the allowance of max. Drawdown. So that means on Euler figure you already need to triple your account size before you can get some additional capital. Now that would sound too much terrifying, but it is like it is. The numbers cannot lie. We can only analyze their offers and I hope one can appreciate the efforts that I decipher their offers to 100%.
I want to add that it is actually much harder than 100% flip of your account size based on the allowance of max. Drawdown. If it is a one-step challenge, then it is what you said. But almost all challenges are two-step, have you wondered why prop firms prefer two-step to one-step? My conclusion is the failure rate of two-step is much higher than one-step, even the total profit target of two-step is the same as that of one-step.
  • #11,553
  • Oct 13, 2022 2:25am Oct 13, 2022 2:25am
Quoting OutThere
{quote}I used ICMarkets and I found it to be the worst broker ever by far but it apparently has a lot of fans which is perplexing. So, is it you or is it them?
I still use IC Markets and consider it the best one of all I tried. But my experience is limited to brokers supporting cTrader. And cTrader with IC Markets may work better than their MT. In my experience their spread, slippage, and overal cost of trading is the best.
What did you dislike about them?

I tested Eightcap but only for a short time and via Duplikium. It was worse then ICM but ok. Though it is hard to tell how much Duplikium and copying trades from cTrader contributed to the worse results.

Location of the trader may affect the experience. I trade from Europe and my ICM cTrader servers are in London (ICM MT servers are in the US) so my ICM latency is typically <15ms whereas Eightcap is in Tokyo with >250ms. That's a difference for sure but traders in US or AP may experience completely different latency times.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,554
  • Oct 13, 2022 2:37am Oct 13, 2022 2:37am
Quoting WhoopTrader
{quote} I've always been a fan of Rob Booker. I remember seeing Rob when he came to Australia (must have been around 2017). One of the best trading conferences I've attended. Not sure about the quality of the guidance he was providing, but damn he was funny. Was more standup comedy show than a forex conference. Was great. By the way, congratulations on your payout from Funded Trading Plus! That's awesome!
i was on the discord server for disgruntled RB subscribers, the man must have made a lot of cash selling BS EA's, indicators and courses. But I agree, he was entertaining and certainly engaged the audience for a while.

i am now part of the FTP discord and that payout screenshot was from another user, I just used it as an example of what could be achieved with them
  • #11,555
  • Oct 13, 2022 4:26am Oct 13, 2022 4:26am
Quoting NevFX
{quote}i am now part of the FTP discord and that payout screenshot was from another user, I just used it as an example of what could be achieved with them
Their conditions are exceptionally favorable to achieving high profits/payouts
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,556
  • Oct 13, 2022 5:28am Oct 13, 2022 5:28am
Quoting mcquak
{quote} Yes, it's global. {image} Wise transfers as well as Revolut works normally.
thanks.
those who can, do. those who cant, talk about those who can
  • #11,557
  • Oct 13, 2022 6:24am Oct 13, 2022 6:24am
FundedNext offers 100% payment for the first withdrawal. They should lower the target like MFF then this could be valuable.
  • #11,558
  • Oct 13, 2022 6:33am Oct 13, 2022 6:33am
Quoting Eren10
FundedNext offers 100% payment for the first withdrawal. They should lower the target like MFF then this could be valuable.
You mean fee refund? It's 115% with their "VVS" discount code. It also discounts the fee by 5% and increases starting profit split from 80:20 to 85:15 (until you reach 20% profit when it changes to 90:10)
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,559
  • Oct 13, 2022 8:36am Oct 13, 2022 8:36am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} You mean fee refund? It's 115% with their "VVS" discount code. It also discounts the fee by 5% and increases starting profit split from 80:20 to 85:15 (until you reach 20% profit when it changes to 90:10)
100% is for the first profit split. Just valid for two days.
  • #11,560
  • Oct 13, 2022 9:38am Oct 13, 2022 9:38am
Quoting Eren10
{quote} 100% is for the first profit split. Just valid for two days.
I see. like 100:0 split, right? Any code needed? I didn't see it on their discord
Money is made by sitting, not trading
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