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  • #11,501
  • Oct 11, 2022 5:44pm Oct 11, 2022 5:44pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Do not forget that you get your refund on a prop account, so you would also need to account for that on your personal account. That said, just because you can flip an account does not mean that you should. People that join props want to be able to make more by risking less (or they should, anyway). They can do this because of the draw-down allowance that is afforded to them. On a personal account, in order to match or exceed what you would gain on a prop account, you would need to risk a lot more, because although you are initially risking...
Exactly. I am pretty agressive in the challenges these days, but once funded, scaled way back. The goal here is 300-500K per year with no risk of ever losing the account. To get there you need an end game goal of approx 2.5 million in funding and making 0.5% weekly. Nothing crazy and you should NEVER come close to any DD limits.
  • #11,502
  • Edited 9:53pm Oct 11, 2022 9:42pm | Edited 9:53pm
Quoting Erebus
{quote} Easier said than done, what are your recommendations please? {image}
FTP has also a single phase challenge with different metrics which I think is better then the one listed here imho.
I have never used them btw. Just info I read.
  • #11,503
  • Oct 11, 2022 9:48pm Oct 11, 2022 9:48pm
I never used 8cap but I keep reading ppl complain about 8cap IF your style is scalping. I assume most ppl doing challenges scalp. So, what if you are a swing or even a long term trader...maybe even a few scalps thrown in, then it should work out ok on average like almost any broker. No?
Disconnects? Freezing? Unexplained spikes? Unfilled orders? High swaps? High commission? What else are the nature of the complaints about them that some traders forgo the funding co, just because they use 8cap?
  • #11,504
  • Oct 11, 2022 11:50pm Oct 11, 2022 11:50pm
Hey, I thought everyone might be interested in this. Came across it today - video with the owner of Funded Trading Plus and a guy that runs the technology for a lot of prop firms on the future of the prop industry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emW-UcDvH38&t

p.s. sorry I don't know how to embed the video
  • #11,505
  • Edited 1:55am Oct 12, 2022 1:44am | Edited 1:55am
Quoting WhoopTrader
Hey, I thought everyone might be interested in this. Came across it today - video with the owner of Funded Trading Plus and a guy that runs the technology for a lot of prop firms on the future of the prop industry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emW-UcDvH38&t p.s. sorry I don't know how to embed the video
Hi can adjust the microphone omgnes.... Simon were are you ....
  • #11,506
  • Oct 12, 2022 1:53am Oct 12, 2022 1:53am
The moderator is obsesed with the lady that make 100% return i think he wants to date her, non stop is asking for her identity hahaha ...
  • #11,507
  • Oct 12, 2022 2:56am Oct 12, 2022 2:56am
By email from The Funded Trader:

Dear Trader,

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  • #11,508
  • Edited 3:53am Oct 12, 2022 3:19am | Edited 3:53am
This is not a margin problem in my example. And the numbers are facts they are telling you the truth. Sometimes it is better to compound on your own than go to prop.
But I also admit that this affects only a small group of traders as the most of them are having huge problems to meet goals of props when they are asking 100% of DD.
  • #11,509
  • Edited 4:11am Oct 12, 2022 3:42am | Edited 4:11am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} On any prop firm, not just MFF, if it takes 30 or 90 or 120 days to get paid
E8 - first payout in 8 days (phase 1 & 2 can be both be completes in 1 day)
FT+ - first payout in 1 day(!) (phase 1 & 2 can be also be completed in 1 day)
Just fyi, there are many others allowing much faster first payout then in 30/90 days and I guess most traders try their best to achieve that (by overtrading, risking too much etc) - just look at the fastest completion times of E8, it measures in minutes for both phases...

Buy of course I second what you write about the margin and recovery
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,510
  • Oct 12, 2022 4:02am Oct 12, 2022 4:02am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} FTP has also a single phase challenge with different metrics which I think is better then the one listed here imho. I have never used them btw. Just info I read.
Yes they have single phase but it is actually more difficult to pass than their 2 phase. Single phase requires 10% with 6% total DD (=166% gain required) whereas 2 phse is 15% (10+5) with 10% DD (=150% total gain but in reality its 100% and 50% gains achieved separately with full DD buffer for each attempt which is even easier)
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #11,511
  • Oct 12, 2022 4:17am Oct 12, 2022 4:17am
Anyone is able to search some background info on FCFF (First Class Forex Funds) prop firm ? As they have an interesting offer and look like to stay for longer or? Hmm..
  • #11,512
  • Oct 12, 2022 4:46am Oct 12, 2022 4:46am
Quoting TrAndy1
the numbers are facts they are telling you the truth. Sometimes it is better to compound on your own than go to prop.
-But you cannot forget about the other numbers... risk. Trading with extremely high risk significantly reduces your chances for long-term success; the odds that you will eventually give it all back are significantly increased.

So, you invest all of that time and effort and eventually lose it all? All of a sudden, the fast numbers that you speak of become meaningless.

I do not discount the benefits of high-risk trading, just that, using it as the only tool in your toolbox is not wise. Spread your risk out and allocate a small percentage to high-risk, then you will be better off over the long-run. Multi-billion-dollar hedge fund managers take this approach for a reason - it works.

With that in mind, there is no reason that you cannot trade both, personal and prop at the same time, should you choose to do that. Make use of all of the tools available to you. But any successful/veteran trader will likely tell you that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

When you start dealing with bigger numbers, retention (or avoiding loss) starts to become more important than ROI. This is not only true for trading, but all money management. If you study the ultra wealthy, this is how they think, and this is also why if you seek funding from large investors, the most important thing for them will be your ability to show them how you are not going to lose their money. They care more about that than your ability to produce 25%/year or more.

If you hire someone to take your child to school, what is more important to you... that your child arrives safely, or that your child arrives on time? Maybe it is a poor analogy, but the idea is the same.
  • #11,513
  • Oct 12, 2022 5:21am Oct 12, 2022 5:21am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-But you cannot forget about the other numbers... risk. Trading with extremely high risk significantly reduces your chances for long-term success; the odds that you will eventually give it all back are significantly increased. So, you invest all of that time and effort and eventually lose it all? All of a sudden, the fast numbers that you speak of become meaningless. I do not discount the benefits of high-risk trading, just that, using it as the only tool in your toolbox is not wise. Spread your risk out and allocate a small percentage to...
I see it bit different. As you cannot get rich when you do not compound your gains. There is some trade-off here of course, as no one wants to risk everything when a certain profit limit is reached. But that is different for anyone. There might be traders who are happy when they make 60k per year others are looking for 1mm per year, and others are just so greedy they always want more. There is also the option to not reduce the risk but just pull out some money from time to time and put in the money into Buyandhold equity indices or real estates for example. Thus you can assure to not loose all while you still can do a lot more with compounding on gains. Hedge Funds are a totally different business model as they cannot afford to loose. They are looking for drawdowns less than 5% at all and that to any time so there is usually no compounding at all, as they have much money behind and most also do not use any leverage as there are full of money. And your example of safety instead of being on time for a child going to school is not a good one. Because when a child comes to often late to school, it gets bad marks thus cannot study on a university later and thus cannot make any career, so the future of that child would be harmed a lot. Reducing risks at all is very individually and can be done in many different steps from trader to trader. At a certain point if you want to grow as trader you need to compound your gains on own personal accounts as you cannot do this on prop firms. There is no way to do it in any other way. When you get a certain amonunt of risk money, say 1mm for drawdowns, then the prop thing becomes much less interesting. This is only for starters very interesting. If you really can be consistent profitable all the time and then why not scale it from to time to make even higher profits. Because there is always the option you can pull out some money to make it safety what has been already reached. So I see it different, in much more shapes.
  • #11,514
  • Oct 12, 2022 5:33am Oct 12, 2022 5:33am
I am also in talks with a hedge fund looking for traders, as they want to seed traders with 200k at the beginning. And I guess you do not get more than 20% profit split, but I do not know all the details yet, as it is in early stadium of talks here. Then I guess you cannot make more than 10% Drawdown, so at the end it is just like having $4k more capital. But I will see how the offer looks like if I get one. Of couse this thing can grow, but that is the truth about this industry. Allowing only small drawdown but also having much reduced profit splits as you do not get 80% profit split on any hedge fund. But the good thing is I can trade remotely here, so that is a plus for me.
  • #11,515
  • Oct 12, 2022 6:00am Oct 12, 2022 6:00am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} E8 - first payout in 8 days (phase 1 & 2 can be both be completes in 1 day) FT+ - first payout in 1 day(!) (phase 1 & 2 can be also be completed in 1 day) Just fyi, there are many others allowing much faster first payout then in 30/90 days and I guess most traders try their best to achieve that (by overtrading, risking too much etc) - just look at the fastest completion times of E8, it measures in minutes for both phases... Buy of course I second what you write about the margin and recovery

It just further proves my point if its 8 days or 1 day or whatever that these opportunities, regardless, are better than trading your own account.
  • #11,516
  • Oct 12, 2022 6:30am Oct 12, 2022 6:30am
Quoting TrAndy1
AAt a certain point if you want to grow as trader you need to compound your gains on own personal accounts as you cannot do this on prop firms.
-Who says that you cannot compound your gains? Maxing out risk is not necessary for compounding gains. But even so, maximum compounding will only get you so far. Eventually, you will have to adjust your approach; liquidity is not unlimited.

As far as compounding on a prop account, I think that you should not limit your thinking. The prop account is just another tool. Although I would argue that you can, in fact, compound on a prop account, I do not think that it is necessary to do so. You can move your money around, as you know, which is what I would recommend anyway; do not leave your profits in your account.

You seem to be advocating for trading on a personal account, but imagine having 10+ prop accounts that are completely risk-free, that are funding your personal account. After all, all you need is a trade copier. The only reason to argue against this logic is if time-to-goal was your primary concern. Is it?

Quoting TrAndy1
And your example of safety instead of being on time for a child going to school is not a good one. Because when a child comes to often late to school, it gets bad marks thus cannot study on a university later and thus cannot make any career, so the future of that child would be harmed a lot.
-As stated, I admit that it was a poor analogy. But are you suggesting that the future success of a child is more important than their life? Surely not, I hope.

Quoting TrAndy1
If you really can be consistent profitable all the time and then why not scale it from to time to make even higher profits.
-No one is likely to be consistently profitable all of the time. Eventually, there will be losses. This is why minimizing risk is important.

Quoting TrAndy1
So I see it different, in much more shapes.
-I agree that you are seeing things differently, but not necessarily in much more shapes, as you say.

Let's simplify it a bit. If you compare MFF $500 account (with 12K draw-down allowance), against a personal account with $500, you may have to earn 108% on the prop account before you can have access to the 12K, but in order to do that on a personal account, you will have to earn 2,400% on the account. Your logic fails here tremendously, because although you may get there faster on a personal account, the odds of doing so are very slim.

It is still early in the day for me, so maybe my math and my logic are wrong, but I suppose that it doesn't matter. People can do whatever they want.
  • #11,517
  • Oct 12, 2022 6:52am Oct 12, 2022 6:52am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Who says that you cannot compound your gains? Maxing out risk is not necessary for compounding gains. But even so, maximum compounding will only get you so far. Eventually, you will have to adjust your approach; liquidity is not unlimited. As far as compounding on a prop account, I think that you should not limit your thinking. The prop account is just another tool. Although I would argue that you can, in fact, compound on a prop account, I do not think that it is necessary to do so. You can move your money around, as you know, which is...
I did not say the prop thing is not good or has no value. I only said from a certain point of the traders ability it does make sense, as it can be better to do only own compounding on personal accounts. I give you another example, so you can see the numbers or math does not lie. MFF is asking for 108% based on drawdown. Now everyone can admit this is difficult to achieve. But let's say there is a confident trader who can do this. Then there is only a small step that this cannot be repeated and achieved again when funded with MFF. You 'only' need to 240% as trader then you can compound your initial fee of $500 to $18k on personal account. This is the same amount you get with 24% on MFF 100k account on a 75% profit split, so you get $18k as payout. But you also have to follow some rules and you can get better trading conditions when trading on own personal account. Here in that example the trade-off is that 240%. If anyone can do this or more than it is better to trade only on your own personal account. If a trader cannot do this than it is certainly better to go the prop firm route with taking challenges. But do not forget that is only a small step to do 108% than doing 240%. On Euler compounding the factor of 240% to 108% is 1.8 or 80% more than what MFF is asking for. So the difference is 'relatively' small.
  • #11,518
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:09am Oct 12, 2022 7:09am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Yes they have single phase but it is actually more difficult to pass than their 2 phase. Single phase requires 10% with 6% total DD (=166% gain required) whereas 2 phse is 15% (10+5) with 10% DD (=150% total gain but in reality its 100% and 50% gains achieved separately with full DD buffer for each attempt which is even easier)
That might be true and worth considering but I still like the single phase option better because it is one run and one goal to pursue instead of getting fragmented into 2 phases.
  • #11,519
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:11am Oct 12, 2022 7:11am
So the conlusion is, and math cannot lie, that any trader who is doing 24% or more in a month when being funded with MFF, would be better doing this on his own personal account, as this is the trade-off amount where own compounding on personal accounts starts to make more sense as you can get more profits. And the rankings of several prop firms is full of traders who achieved more than 24% of profits within a month. Of course on bi-weekly payouts the numbers do change a bit.
  • #11,520
  • Oct 12, 2022 7:15am Oct 12, 2022 7:15am
Quoting TrAndy1
I did not say the prop thing is not good or has no value.
-I do not recall saying that.

Quoting TrAndy1
MFF is asking for 108% based on drawdown. Now everyone can admit this is difficult to achieve.
-I do not think that everyone can admit this. The question is, though, is it smart? In the case of prop, it is an acceptable trade-off for procuring trading capital quickly. But doing this repeatedly in rapid succession may be reckless.

This is the whole point. Just because it can be done, does not mean that it should be. I will be the first to admit that risk is subjective. However, if you really want to be successful over the long-term, then you need to practice good risk-management. Prop firms help us to do that by increasing profitability while also reducing overall risk.

If your primary goal is to make as much money as quickly as possible, then by all means, trade on a personal account and do not 'waste your time' on prop.
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