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  • #10,361
  • Aug 19, 2022 12:22pm Aug 19, 2022 12:22pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I'll work backwards here.... 1. Funded accounts, you already have the correct approach, IMO, the entire point of acquiring that much funding is to trade with ridiculously low risk and still make a tremendous amount of money. I literally trade $5/pip per 100K on forex and $3/point on indices. Of course, I add to the position when it moves in my favor (or against me, if trade is still valid) 2. Phase 2, same approach, you have 60 days to make 5%, no need for excessive risk 3. Phase 1, as you stated, the challenge is the challenges. Here you...
Pipmaster, those are some valid points and I made some notes of them. Thanks for the info, greatly appreciate it.
  • #10,362
  • Aug 19, 2022 12:28pm Aug 19, 2022 12:28pm
Quoting CableJ
{quote} TFT does allow copy trading to/from/between their royal account. Their standard eval program also allowed copy trading but only as master to external accounts;.
Ok, thanks for the info!
  • #10,363
  • Aug 19, 2022 12:29pm Aug 19, 2022 12:29pm
Quoting CableJ
I was thinking about something..... is it even possible for these props to B book? Unlike a broker, there is no trader capital on deposit to withdraw B book wins from. The prop would have to go to market to make money on the opposite trade. With the volume some traders are putting on, could they even go to market without incurring huge slippage on every fill?
They pay the wins from the collected challenge fees
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #10,364
  • Aug 19, 2022 12:34pm Aug 19, 2022 12:34pm
Quoting pipmaster77
Opinions/concerns?
-I asked the question as soon as I saw it. These changes may be minor to some, but might require a totally new approach for others, so perhaps it warrants some explanation. Hopefully, they respond without using some canned response.

Quoting CableJ
sounds like they are taking steps to reign in those massive 6 figure payouts.
-I do not really follow such things, but I am curious if anyone knows whether or not the 1.4M+ profit trader on the leaderboard was ever paid out, or if the trader blew the account?
  • #10,365
  • Aug 19, 2022 12:51pm Aug 19, 2022 12:51pm
Quoting CableJ
I was thinking about something..... is it even possible for these props to B book? Unlike a broker, there is no trader capital on deposit to withdraw B book wins from. The prop would have to go to market to make money on the opposite trade. With the volume some traders are putting on, could they even go to market without incurring huge slippage on every fill?

They are 99% b book because if they didn't they would lose millions per day. Its a higher risk b-book than a broker for the reason you mentioned, but its a b book. If you need to STP someone and you miss them for 3 or 4 payouts, you only STP them to avoid further losses not to make the money back as making it back will take months if not years due to the insanely high profit splits of all the firms.

Re slippage, yes you are again right, and most of these traders would lose even faster on real market conditions. Just comments on threads/discords shows that the users are not capable of trading anything but smoothed, filtered conditions and even then they are failing at a 95+% rate.
  • #10,366
  • Aug 19, 2022 5:49pm Aug 19, 2022 5:49pm
Quoting Vitore
{quote} They pay the wins from the collected challenge fees
i agree with you
this is definitely Pyramid game, well sure they will we stay around couples years,
if you have funded account do not hesitate maximize your profit
  • #10,367
  • Aug 19, 2022 7:20pm Aug 19, 2022 7:20pm
Quoting HengkiTjen
stay around couples years
-Probably, no reason not to unless 3rd parties get involved. Better than a ponzi because gains are not guaranteed and only a small percentage will likely see them. Even if traders quit, there will always be newbies joining the pool.
  • #10,368
  • Aug 19, 2022 9:08pm Aug 19, 2022 9:08pm
Quoting CableJ
MFF is just as big as FTMO, if not bigger now. FTMO's largest payouts vs MFF have been eyebrow raising lately. Strong trends with no/minimal corrections like recently in JPY or currently in the indices lead to big payouts by aggressive high risk traders. As you said, sounds like they are taking steps to reign in those massive 6 figure payouts.
It is difficult to get bigger payouts like FTMO on MyFF due to daily drawdown rule
  • #10,369
  • Aug 19, 2022 9:38pm Aug 19, 2022 9:38pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} It is difficult to get bigger payouts like FTMO on MyFF due to daily drawdown rule
Yes, so as opposed to changing how they calculate daily DD, FTMO opted to change the way they calculate free margin. Both accomplish the same thing.
  • #10,370
  • Aug 19, 2022 10:23pm Aug 19, 2022 10:23pm
If you are in the US, just more reasons to use prop firms:

From Oanda website:

Your Margin Account with OANDA is not insured under any state or federal insurance program, or by any other entity. In the event OANDA should become insolvent or file for protection under the bankruptcy laws, it is possible that you would lose the entire amount in your Margin Account. Please take additional time to review the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CTFC) consumer trading fraud advisory. Please be sure to read our complete Risk Disclosure Statement and contact us if you have any questions or concerns

Of course, I was already aware. But imagine having a 6 figure + account and waking up to an FXCM moment of a few years back.

Don't you just love how regulation "protects" us?
  • #10,371
  • Aug 20, 2022 4:38am Aug 20, 2022 4:38am
Pyramid scheme? Pyramid schemes require multiple tiers of marketers.

The margin requirement changes and lot size changes of FTMO are sensible.

The average prop trader trades at least 60x bigger than the average retail broker trader. There simply isnt enough liquidity to handle these prop accounts on a good day. Yes it might cap compound yoloers but it does not stifle any good traders with risk management practices. I would LOVE to have a chance to say something bad about FTMO, but I cannot. Their rule makes sense to me despite it being a stupid way to not just change the daily rule to be more sensible like MFF and TFT.

People think their dreams are being capped, but as someone who has almost reached 1m withdrawn from the ones with the equity + balance drawdown rules, I can say it doesn't stop you from making money.
  • #10,372
  • Aug 20, 2022 8:34am Aug 20, 2022 8:34am
Quoting Takisd
Pyramid scheme? Pyramid schemes require multiple tiers of marketers. The margin requirement changes and lot size changes of FTMO are sensible. The average prop trader trades at least 60x bigger than the average retail broker trader. There simply isnt enough liquidity to handle these prop accounts on a good day. Yes it might cap compound yoloers but it does not stifle any good traders with risk management practices. I would LOVE to have a chance to say something bad about FTMO, but I cannot. Their rule makes sense to me despite it being a stupid...
TBH, although most wouldn't agree. I think they should all simply lower the leverage offered. It solves all of the issues of liquidity, folks yolo'ing the account, etc.
After all, you are actually only trading with 10% of the account "balance" due to the max loss. So, in reality a 100K with 100:1 is actually a 10K with 1000:1. If they made it 10:1, it would actually be a 100:1 on the amount you are actually trading with. They do not simply because it would hinder their profits, not the trader's. I guarantee pass rates would go up and folks would hold on to the funded accounts much longer. I use the swing account at FTMO with 30:1, profits didn't change one bit.
The true perfect model for the firm would be high leverage in the challenge so folks could still blow them up and lower in the funded to solve liquidity, high risk traders or whatever they are claiming as the reason for the margin calculating/daily DD/ lot size restriction rules.
  • #10,373
  • Aug 20, 2022 8:57am Aug 20, 2022 8:57am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} TBH, although most wouldn't agree. I think they should all simply lower the leverage offered. It solves all of the issues of liquidity, folks yolo'ing the account, etc. After all, you are actually only trading with 10% of the account "balance" due to the max loss. So, in reality a 100K with 100:1 is actually a 10K with 1000:1. If they made it 10:1, it would actually be a 100:1 on the amount you are actually trading with. They do not simply because it would hinder their profits, not the trader's. I guarantee pass rates would go up and folks...

I kind of use my leverage. To be honest those who are violating I think deserve to violate. Whether leverage is 1:1000 or 1:1 bad traders will always find a way to kill their accounts. Its far more probable than making profit.

People complain about the daily drawdown rules, but its really stupid. If you know the rules from day 1, there shouldn't be any reason to hit it. You should be stopping way before it however its calculated. People act like these things surprise them but thats only deflection of their bad trading. Its not like anyone is deceiving anyone, its very strange.

Lower leverage with current params of the programs would mean people won't pass as they will have to take more trades to hit the targets. With bigger leverage, the probability of someone who shouldn't pass, passing, is higher due to position size.
  • #10,374
  • Aug 20, 2022 9:14am Aug 20, 2022 9:14am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I kind of use my leverage. To be honest those who are violating I think deserve to violate. Whether leverage is 1:1000 or 1:1 bad traders will always find a way to kill their accounts. Its far more probable than making profit. People complain about the daily drawdown rules, but its really stupid. If you know the rules from day 1, there shouldn't be any reason to hit it. You should be stopping way before it however its calculated. People act like these things surprise them but thats only deflection of their bad trading. Its not like anyone...
Yes, which is why I was suggesting, in a perfect world, higher leverage on the challenge, lower it once funded.....however, this would not be a very marketable product....and you're right, bad trading is bad trading.....higher leverage just allows you to find out your bad quicker, while lower leverage drags out the process. The bottom line is risk.....30:1 with a 10 pip stop is the same risk as 3:1 with a 100 pip stop. I truly think most failing traders (personal account or prop) simply cannot manage risk and it should be the FIRST thing you learn before ever placing your first trade.
  • #10,375
  • Aug 20, 2022 9:17am Aug 20, 2022 9:17am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, which is why I was suggesting, in a perfect world, higher leverage on the challenge, lower it once funded.....however, this would not be a very marketable product....and you're right, bad trading is bad trading.....higher leverage just allows you to find out your bad quicker, while lower leverage drags out the process. The bottom line is risk.....30:1 with a 10 pip stop is the same risk as 3:1 with a 100 pip stop. I truly think most failing traders (personal account or prop) simply cannot manage risk and it should be the FIRST thing...

You're absolutely right about the risk management. I also think that the psychological FOMO going on right now is massive. People seem to think trading is the keys to the lambo when they should be happy with a Yaris.
  • #10,376
  • Aug 20, 2022 10:16am Aug 20, 2022 10:16am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} You're absolutely right about the risk management. I also think that the psychological FOMO going on right now is massive. People seem to think trading is the keys to the lambo when they should be happy with a Yaris.
Absolutely, a decent trader should be able to earn $40-50K annually per $100K funded, with practically no risk at all. It's about 1% per week, nothing crazy. So, if you are able to scale to $1M, well it's 400-500K. Why people are trying for 6 figure bi-weekly payouts on a 100K account, I don't get it.
You have personally had some huge payouts, but years of experience, and as you have stated yourself numerous times.....it is only certain conditions you're able to achieve this in while also understanding you are more likely to blow up as well. The higher the reward, the higher the risk required.
These delusional folks want the high reward with zero risk, the real world simply does not operate like that.
  • #10,377
  • Aug 20, 2022 3:16pm Aug 20, 2022 3:16pm
Quoting pipmaster77
If you are in the US, just more reasons to use prop firms: From Oanda website: Your Margin Account with OANDA is not insured under any state or federal insurance program, or by any other entity. In the event OANDA should become insolvent or file for protection under the bankruptcy laws, it is possible that you would lose the entire amount in your Margin Account. Please take additional time to review the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CTFC) consumer trading fraud advisory. Please be sure to read our complete Risk Disclosure Statement and contact...
I would worry more about US broker's piss poor trading conditions than the risk of them going bust. The one thing about US regulated brokers is that if they do go bust a competitor usually buys their customer base. Offshore they just run off with the cash like once well regarded Finpro.
  • #10,378
  • Aug 20, 2022 3:46pm Aug 20, 2022 3:46pm
Quoting pipmaster77
If you are in the US, just more reasons to use prop firms: From Oanda website: Your Margin Account with OANDA is not insured under any state or federal insurance program, or by any other entity. In the event OANDA should become insolvent or file for protection under the bankruptcy laws, it is possible that you would lose the entire amount in your Margin Account. Please take additional time to review the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CTFC) consumer trading fraud advisory. Please be sure to read our complete Risk Disclosure Statement and contact...
But I don’t understand why traders living in the USA need oanda? This country is full of brokers who have been working for 30-40 years "Interactive brokers. TDAmeritrade, Charles Schwab and others" They have a reputation, tight control, and so on.
  • #10,379
  • Aug 20, 2022 6:02pm Aug 20, 2022 6:02pm
Quoting Profit-men
{quote} But I don’t understand why traders living in the USA need oanda? This country is full of brokers who have been working for 30-40 years "Interactive brokers. TDAmeritrade, Charles Schwab and others" They have a reputation, tight control, and so on.
Interactive Brokers requires 10 million in assets to trade forex. None of the mentioned brokers offer any protection of funds on FOREX, the CFTC actually prohibits it. The regulation on forex is all disguised to move people back to futures. Not to mention, as CableJ has pointed out, the conditions are deplorable. I am only talking spot market here and have no interest in anything else.....futures, options, stocks, etc
  • #10,380
  • Aug 20, 2022 6:04pm Aug 20, 2022 6:04pm
Quoting CableJ
{quote} I would worry more about US broker's piss poor trading conditions than the risk of them going bust. The one thing about US regulated brokers is that if they do go bust a competitor usually buys their customer base. Offshore they just run off with the cash like once well regarded Finpro.
Right. Which is why if you are going to still trade a personal spot forex account, you are better off with unregulated offshore entities. Your money is protected equally well (zero), but conditions are far superior and you only need 10% of the margin to execute THE SAME EXACT TRADE. If broker goes bankrupt, you've only lost 10% of what you would have with a CFTC "regulated" broker. Personally, I will never trade my own funds again. Prop firms are a no brainer for traders in the US.
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