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  • #9,401
  • Jul 18, 2022 10:21am Jul 18, 2022 10:21am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I see. I was referring to cases where you would not be charging someone, such as helping a family member or something. But, whether or not that would be wise, is obviously questionable. To call it a scam though...but again, just semantics.

Imagine rocking up to an in person prop firm, being like "oh I brought my sister, I'm going to trade her account for her"...
  • #9,402
  • Jul 18, 2022 10:44am Jul 18, 2022 10:44am
Quoting Takisd
Imagine rocking up to an in person prop firm, being like "oh I brought my sister, I'm going to trade her account for her"...
-Well, to be fair, remote prop firm is not the same, especially if you consider the point about trading on a demo account with potentially-theoretical funds. Is it wise to help your sister? Probably not. Is it ethical? Probably not. Is it a scam? Probably not.

But how important is it to clarify this matter? Whether you think of it as a scam or not, is not so important. I think that most of us are in agreement that these services are irresponsible at best. I have no issue with spreading awareness. Will I personally go out of my way to do it? No. But that's okay. Do I think that having a list that names specifics services is a good thing? Not really.

Better to not give them more publicity. Just saying that all of them are bad for you is good enough in my opinion. Besides, if someone is insistent on going with one of these services, they may do so whether or not they are being warned ahead of time.

Everyone that decides to learn how to trade will eventually realize that it is not easy. The only way to learn and grow is through hard work and a lot of failing. There are no shortcuts. The sooner that is realized, the better. If people believe that labeling all trade-for-you services as scams will be beneficial to these remote firms, then that is their choice. Whether or not there is any truth to it may be a matter of opinion.
  • #9,403
  • Jul 18, 2022 10:51am Jul 18, 2022 10:51am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Well, to be fair, remote prop firm is not the same, especially if you consider the point about trading on a demo account with potentially-theoretical funds. Is it wise to help your sister? Probably not. Is it ethical? Probably not. Is it a scam? Probably not. But how important is it to clarify this matter? Whether you think of it as a scam or not, is not so important. I think that most of us are in agreement that these services are irresponsible at best. I have no issue with spreading awareness. Will I personally go out of my way to do it?...

The publicity thing is actually a good point.
  • #9,404
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:07am Jul 18, 2022 11:07am
Quoting Takisd
The publicity thing is actually a good point.
-I think that to be truly objective, we could also say that many of these firms are just ponzi scams. Maybe not all of them. But it doesn't really matter at the end of the day because people want to use their services. And maybe it's easy to say that these done-for-your services do not have your bests interests in mind, and only want your money. But the same could probably be said about some remote prop firms.

Many people try to call these firms scams, but here we are. As business owners/operators, we weigh the risk accordingly. The opportunity is clear. Personally, if I could not pass a challenge, then paying someone to pass for me is little different than buying a very expensive lottery ticket. Maybe the odds make it worth it to some. I don't know.

Quoting TrAndy1
Interesting point about family members trading. Anyone tried to get a bigger max account size with opening new accounts under different name within family and different email address but same ip address ? Does it work ?
-I think some firms allow (multiple account holders under one address). But if you are doing it only to expand your maximum allocation, then you take on similar risk doing so. You could also probably set up multiple LLC's or similar and operate under each entity.
  • #9,405
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:16am Jul 18, 2022 11:16am
Lets start with the first one I found is a pure scam then?

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/ww...gecrushers.org

This is the igdoust guy. Its a scam.
  • #9,406
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:18am Jul 18, 2022 11:18am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Well, to be fair, remote prop firm is not the same, especially if you consider the point about trading on a demo account with potentially-theoretical funds. Is it wise to help your sister? Probably not. Is it ethical? Probably not. Is it a scam? Probably not. But how important is it to clarify this matter? Whether you think of it as a scam or not, is not so important. I think that most of us are in agreement that these services are irresponsible at best. I have no issue with spreading awareness. Will I personally go out of my way to do it?...
Other than it being against the rules, what is the point in using this service anyway? They aren't going to continue trading your funded account. So even if they do pass it for you, then what? It's like the old expression, I can catch a fish for you and you can eat today OR I can teach you to fish and you can eat the rest of your life.
  • #9,407
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:20am Jul 18, 2022 11:20am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Other than it being against the rules, what is the point in using this service anyway? They aren't going to continue trading your funded account. So even if they do pass it for you, then what? It's like the old expression, I can catch a fish for you and you can eat today OR I can teach you to fish and you can eat the rest of your life.

they do continue trading for a % of the profits. I deep dove into a few of them recently to see what the model was and how it works. There are a few. One of them was arbing gold and eventually lost everyones accounts. Another was buy/sell on various different users to increase the pass rate so the reviews were mixed.

The worst part is they charge a LOT and people pay it. Its soulless scamming.
  • #9,408
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:44am Jul 18, 2022 11:44am
Quoting pipmaster77
Other than it being against the rules, what is the point in using this service anyway? They aren't going to continue trading your funded account. So even if they do pass it for you, then what? It's like the old expression, I can catch a fish for you and you can eat today OR I can teach you to fish and you can eat the rest of your life.
-I don't know. If people are just gambling, then maybe the odds are 50/50 in their mind.

Quoting Takisd
The worst part is they charge a LOT and people pay it. Its soulless scamming.
-People are dumb (and lazy). I personally wish people would stop paying for direct-funding models. As far as done-for-you services, people pay for expensive EA's and signal provider services, too. It's whatever.
  • #9,409
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:51am Jul 18, 2022 11:51am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} they do continue trading for a % of the profits. I deep dove into a few of them recently to see what the model was and how it works. There are a few. One of them was arbing gold and eventually lost everyones accounts. Another was buy/sell on various different users to increase the pass rate so the reviews were mixed. The worst part is they charge a LOT and people pay it. Its soulless scamming.
People making money on other people's desire to get rich. There is a market for everything.
  • #9,410
  • Jul 18, 2022 11:58am Jul 18, 2022 11:58am
Quoting pipmaster77
People making money on other people's desire to get rich. There is a market for everything.
-That pretty much describes most things. Internet marketing is one of the biggest industries. Most of the money is made through people teaching others how to make money. It's a vicious cycle of redundancy.
  • #9,411
  • Jul 18, 2022 12:11pm Jul 18, 2022 12:11pm
Traded far below 1 lot and on my second day on funded I see such gains. You do not need to trade big to make some decent gains is my lesson. If I can hold that, hm...
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #9,412
  • Jul 18, 2022 12:19pm Jul 18, 2022 12:19pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I don't know. If people are just gambling, then maybe the odds are 50/50 in their mind. {quote}-People are dumb (and lazy). I personally wish people would stop paying for direct-funding models. As far as done-for-you services, people pay for expensive EA's and signal provider services, too. It's whatever.
Very true. People still buy the direct funding thinking it is a good deal. The ironic thing is it is not just the fee being higher than the allowable loss (that one is obvious), the real gimmick is the scaling.....make 10% and we double you, the unsuspecting do not realize that 10% profit with 10% DD is DOUBLING THE ACCOUNT. Some firms ask for 10% with even less DD, some only scale 50% not 100%. When one actually plugs the numbers of trading that amount on their own, the firm comes out way ahead, I've run some numbers where the personal account is 4-5 times larger by the end of the "scaling".
  • #9,413
  • Jul 18, 2022 12:37pm Jul 18, 2022 12:37pm
People who trade direct funding want money now not later. Thats all it is, the return from some programs is faster than the process of doing the evaluations. Its not a smart move, and generally someone who buys it probably thinks they are better than they are.
  • #9,414
  • Jul 18, 2022 12:53pm Jul 18, 2022 12:53pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Traded far below 1 lot and on my second day on funded I see such gains. You do not need to trade big to make some decent gains is my lesson. If I can hold that, hm... {image}
Agree 100%.......3.3% last week, I was on vacation the entire week, did not exceed 1:1 leverage on forex. On the indices I trade $3/point per 100K.
  • #9,415
  • Jul 18, 2022 1:22pm Jul 18, 2022 1:22pm
Quoting TrAndy1
You do not need to trade big to make some decent gains
-True. You can even pass most challenges without taking on a lot of risk so long as you are willing to grind it out each day and spend most of the allotted time doing it. Most want it to happen fast, though. I would bet that most of the traders that are trading with these firms are not even old enough to have used a dial-up connection. The patience required for that these days... forget about it.

Quoting Takisd
People who trade direct funding want money now not later. Thats all it is
-Yes. There may be a few that do not have access to brokers, crypto or some other things, but I'm not sure. I think that there are some that genuinely think that the scaling is a good deal, though. The benefit of the direct funding model allows you to trade 100% of your capital in lieu of getting stopped out at 50% or whatever. But this benefit comes at a cost of 50% of your profits, usually... even before Uncle Sam gets his share. Maybe some can get better leverage through the firm, or something similar, but I'm not sure.

They do usually come with a lower price-point, though. That is a big driver, probably. Lower barrier to entry... people can start there and work up to a challenge model. But you still have to try to weigh the benefits over trading your own account.
  • #9,416
  • Jul 18, 2022 1:28pm Jul 18, 2022 1:28pm
Quoting Takisd
someone who buys it probably thinks they are better than they are.
Or deep down they really know they've no idea what they're doing. Otherwise they'd have the tenacity to do a funded account. MFF gives you practically 60 days for 8% or 4%/month. That is very doable with even an average system. (Average as in the average of profitable systems.)
Basically you risk 3k USD and 4 months to make 13% and end up with a 60k (nominal 600k) account. What a time to be a trader!
  • #9,417
  • Jul 18, 2022 1:42pm Jul 18, 2022 1:42pm
Quoting muir
{quote} Or deep down they really know they've no idea what they're doing. Otherwise they'd have the tenacity to do a funded account. MFF gives you practically 60 days for 8% or 4%/month. That is very doable with even an average system. (Average as in the average of profitable systems.) Basically you risk 3k USD and 4 months to make 13% and end up with a 60k (nominal 600k) account. What a time to be a trader!

I tried not to be harsh sir.
  • #9,418
  • Jul 18, 2022 4:01pm Jul 18, 2022 4:01pm
Quoting muir
{quote} Or deep down they really know they've no idea what they're doing. Otherwise they'd have the tenacity to do a funded account. MFF gives you practically 60 days for 8% or 4%/month. That is very doable with even an average system. (Average as in the average of profitable systems.) Basically you risk 3k USD and 4 months to make 13% and end up with a 60k (nominal 600k) account. What a time to be a trader!
It's actually a 72K account as MFF is the ONLY firm I'm aware of with 12% allowable loss.
  • #9,419
  • Jul 18, 2022 4:53pm Jul 18, 2022 4:53pm
The funded trader does, but maybe it comes with sacrifices.
  • #9,420
  • Jul 18, 2022 5:35pm Jul 18, 2022 5:35pm
Quoting Nsak3y
The funded trader does, but maybe it comes with sacrifices.
Yes, true. I was only looking at the newest offering with 8% target.
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