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  • #8,741
  • Edited 10:42pm Jun 24, 2022 4:33pm | Edited 10:42pm
Quoting EnoFX
Can someone confirm if US30 price feed is the same for both FTMO and MFF? I've noticed that prices vary widely between Tradingview and MFF (sometimes by almost 20 points) so I'm curious if there's any discrepancy between MFF and FTMO.
Not identical, but very close. Certainly not 20 points. Be aware though FTMO position size is 10 times that of MFF, so trading $10/point is 10.00 on MFF, 1.00 on FTMO.
  • #8,742
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:57pm Jun 24, 2022 4:57pm
Quoting EnoFX
Can someone confirm if US30 price feed is the same for both FTMO and MFF? I've noticed that prices vary widely between Tradingview and MFF (sometimes by almost 20 points) so I'm curious if there's any discrepancy between MFF and FTMO.
Tradingview is notoriously inaccurate for pricing since they are "best only display prices". They dont include certain variables and are generally used only for marketing purposes.
  • #8,743
  • Jun 24, 2022 10:29pm Jun 24, 2022 10:29pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Not identical, but very close. Certainly not 20 points. Be aware though FTMO position size is 10 times that of MFF, so trading $10/point is 1.00 on MFF, 0.10 on FTMO.
Thanks, that's good to know.
  • #8,744
  • Edited 3:16am Jun 25, 2022 3:00am | Edited 3:16am
Based on MFF's stats, 0.5-0.7% of evaluation purchasers make it to 1st payout.

<10 traders every month receive >50K payouts and those are usually 1x payouts before the majority of the high risk traders blow their accounts.

MFF & FTMO have been flip flopping the past few months for web traffic supremacy. They both have >3M monthly traffic now. If 1% purchase a $300 account on avg that's 9M in revenue. After staff, marketing & infrastructure costs, do either of these 2 ever have to go live with trades to offset the risk from the few big winning traders?
  • #8,745
  • Jun 25, 2022 3:11am Jun 25, 2022 3:11am
@Takisd

500K prop account vs 500K retail account @ same risk per trade... do you think execution would be superior with prop firms since they are very unlikely going to market vs trying to execute the same size with a STP ECN broker?
  • #8,746
  • Jun 25, 2022 5:57am Jun 25, 2022 5:57am
Quoting CableJ
@Takisd 500K prop account vs 500K retail account @ same risk per trade... do you think execution would be superior with prop firms since they are very unlikely going to market vs trying to execute the same size with a STP ECN broker?
I think that prop firms are less likely to play games with your account than a broker to be honest. Their revenues are not dependent on you losing your account value to 0. Their revenues are made in the evaluation/challenge stage.

A prime of prime ECN/STP or someone who claims that, will have far more slippage than any prop feed, even the worst of prop feeds if you are trading the same style as a prop trading with 500k in a broker and I don't think the slippage is organic (broker side) they generally exacerbate it to clip more of the ticket. Spreads on eur/usd on an ECN/STP or prime of prime are only 0.0-0.1 because of the 1k tickets and not because theres 100 lots available at that spread.

The truth is, traders in the retail environment really don't know what it feels like trading in real conditions with big size and if they were to experience it they would scream scam after the first trade. Retail traders and retail strategies are built on the basis that there is unlimited liquidity and if I ask to buy at 1 I Will get all my order, regardless of size at 1. Which even with the depth of eur/usd (which is why i use it as the example) is never the case. And forget about exotics, the liquidity is less than 5 lots on exotics from gbp/jpy and above. So all those daniel savage wannabes who are throwing 100 lot gbp/jpy trades would cry foul if they hit real market because they would slip 3-5 pips on every trade because the liquidity just isnt there.
  • #8,747
  • Jun 25, 2022 8:53am Jun 25, 2022 8:53am
Quoting CableJ
Based on MFF's stats, 0.5-0.7% of evaluation purchasers make it to 1st payout. <10 traders every month receive >50K payouts and those are usually 1x payouts before the majority of the high risk traders blow their accounts. MFF & FTMO have been flip flopping the past few months for web traffic supremacy. They both have >3M monthly traffic now. If 1% purchase a $300 account on avg that's 9M in revenue. After staff, marketing & infrastructure costs, do either of these 2 ever have to go live with trades to offset the risk from the few big winning traders?...
Probably not !

FTMO have traders on their payroll that trade a portion of their capital in-house.

MFF I'm not so sure but would have to think that they do.

As I mentioned in a previous post it would certainly become a problem if a volatile market provided huge monthly gains to most of their funded traders in the same month.

Recall that the profit split greatly favors the trader typically at 80/20.

So in the unlikely but possible event that multiple funded traders generate a major positive outlier in profit with the same or similar payout date then pressure to pay traders on time could become an issue.

Most of this is all about playing the odds.

I mean how likely is it to have most of your funded traders say making a profit that would cause havoc to the Prop Firm if they are generating $10M per month or so in revenue.

Some math is useful here.

Based on using the available information provided by the Prop Stats one can derive some values at which the firm might start to get into payout troubles.

Ofcourse some assumptions need to be made since we don't have all the data from the firms such as current funded trader numbers, funded account sizes and number of each account size, fee revenue and miscellaneous revenue streams.

An educated guess could be made though using a model or excel or even the back of an envelope calculation.

What type of event would put a Prop Firm into a situation where they would struggle to payout funded traders.

Masterrmind ...........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,748
  • Jun 25, 2022 9:48am Jun 25, 2022 9:48am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Probably not ! FTMO have traders on their payroll that trade a portion of their capital in-house. MFF I'm not so sure but would have to think that they do. As I mentioned in a previous post it would certainly become a problem if a volatile market provided huge monthly gains to most of their funded traders in the same month. Recall that the profit split greatly favors the trader typically at 80/20. So in the unlikely but possible event that multiple funded traders generate a major positive outlier in profit with the same or similar payout...
Life time payout can not be guaranteed with any Firm.

On the basis of reputation and longevity, FTMO may survive.

And until the firms get blown, make money.
Intraday only.
  • #8,749
  • Jun 25, 2022 10:27am Jun 25, 2022 10:27am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Probably not ! FTMO have traders on their payroll that trade a portion of their capital in-house. MFF I'm not so sure but would have to think that they do. As I mentioned in a previous post it would certainly become a problem if a volatile market provided huge monthly gains to most of their funded traders in the same month. Recall that the profit split greatly favors the trader typically at 80/20. So in the unlikely but possible event that multiple funded traders generate a major positive outlier in profit with the same or similar payout...
Part of the equation could also be the prop firm hedging a small portion of their funded traders OR copying a small portion of their funded traders OR a combination of both. I bet there is also substantial revenue in LP cash back rebates, etc. I'm pretty confident the BIG 2 have diversified to the point where payouts will never be an issue. The next batch of successful firms ( if there are any), if they have any brains behind them, should simply emulate FTMO and MFF exactly step by step if they wish to compete and hang with the big boys.
  • #8,750
  • Jun 25, 2022 11:06am Jun 25, 2022 11:06am
Quoting CableJ
@Takisd 500K prop account vs 500K retail account @ same risk per trade... do you think execution would be superior with prop firms since they are very unlikely going to market vs trying to execute the same size with a STP ECN broker?
it depends.

The prop firm can link up with a STP ECN broker and pass on the liquidity to the client.

Or, the prop firm can benefit from the spreads; as prevalent in many brokers.

Or, the prop firm can link up with a STP ECN broker and share the spoils with the STP ECN broker.

It all depebds on the integrity of the prop firm.
You can reach me on Telegram @ KramerFx
  • #8,751
  • Edited 11:57am Jun 25, 2022 11:37am | Edited 11:57am
Quoting Masterrmind
Of course some assumptions need to be made since we don't have all the data from the firms such as current funded trader numbers, funded account sizes and number of each account size, fee revenue and miscellaneous revenue streams.
Quoting pipmaster77
Part of the equation could also be the prop firm hedging a small portion of their funded traders OR copying a small portion of their funded traders OR a combination of both. I bet there is also substantial revenue in LP cash back rebates, etc. I'm pretty confident the BIG 2 have diversified to the point where payouts will never be an issue.
-Yes to both of these comments. Not only alternative revenue streams, but the possibility that these firms have set aside a healthy insurance fund to cover any significant losses/payouts as they continue to accumulate massive profits month-after-month.

In truth, as previously mentioned, I would not be surprised if the profit that they see just from failed challenges could easily dwarf any potential payouts simply due to the statistical data being so heavily in their favor. I mean, how likely is a casino going to fail? It's not likely at all, especially when you consider the odds, repeat customers and new customers etc..
  • #8,752
  • Jun 25, 2022 1:29pm Jun 25, 2022 1:29pm
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Probably not ! FTMO have traders on their payroll that trade a portion of their capital in-house.
I'd bet money that this is not true.
  • #8,753
  • Jun 25, 2022 2:27pm Jun 25, 2022 2:27pm
Hi, if anyone wants prop firm accounts but do not have the capital to purchase them, feel free to reach out to me.
You can reach me on Telegram @ KramerFx
  • #8,754
  • Jun 25, 2022 3:18pm Jun 25, 2022 3:18pm
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Probably not ! FTMO have traders on their payroll that trade a portion of their capital in-house. MFF I'm not so sure but would have to think that they do. As I mentioned in a previous post it would certainly become a problem if a volatile market provided huge monthly gains to most of their funded traders in the same month. Recall that the profit split greatly favors the trader typically at 80/20. So in the unlikely but possible event that multiple funded traders generate a major positive outlier in profit with the same or similar payout...
Why would anyone put trade similar to funded account as most of them blow up accounts. My guess would be they put opposite trades starting from challenge, verification and funded account into their live prop firm accounts. This way they guarantee 10% profit for 99% of time. Even if some traders like recent ones from FTMO takes 500K payout and if prop firm has enough money and registrations those payouts are peanuts.
  • #8,755
  • Jun 25, 2022 4:00pm Jun 25, 2022 4:00pm
It's funny how we all (myself included) speculate the how's. why's, and what if's of these prop firms. Why? We will never know for certain as they will never reveal how it really works. Obviously we want them to be able to keep paying, but as has been stated numerous times......make as much as you can for as long as they keep paying. More time and energy should really be devoted on how to maximize your returns.....We already know they pay, who cares how, try to get as much of it as you possibly can!
  • #8,756
  • Jun 25, 2022 6:00pm Jun 25, 2022 6:00pm
....someone just got paid over $500k by FTMO ....

meanwhle u guys are busy arguing how? how long? how when? how where? whom? whom what? how whom where?
  • #8,757
  • Jun 25, 2022 6:27pm Jun 25, 2022 6:27pm
Quoting Immortal99
....someone just got paid over $500k by FTMO .... meanwhle u guys are busy arguing how? how long? how when? how where? whom? whom what? how whom where?
Well aware of that payout it's been mentioned here in previous posts.

The conversation actually stemmed from this point or similar point which led to questions being raised as regards to the ability of the Prop Firm or firms to continue to make payouts in an event whereby multiple funded traders have 'outlier' profit splits, as in very large as is the case with the $500K+ example.

I suppose if you swim close to the shore you never really get to see what might be out in the deep blue sea !

Discussing and modelling Prop Firm revenue streams and risk mitigation interests me and I'm guessing it interests others too.

In any case I see your side however, several traders are funded here and I see no issue with a little bit deeper thinking going on in this thread.

For one thing it might help others interested in starting their own Prop Firm understand a tiny bit more.

Masterrmind .............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,758
  • Jun 25, 2022 6:30pm Jun 25, 2022 6:30pm
Quoting Immortal99
....someone just got paid over $500k by FTMO .... meanwhle u guys are busy arguing how?
No arguing here. I would think that anyone that is treating this as a serious business would be keen to understand various aspects of the business and stay informed on what is going on as well as what could happen in the future etc.. It is normal, in my opinion.

I also think that there are not many opportunities for retail traders to discuss shop with others.

Even if you have backup plans for backup plans, you could still benefit to have a better understanding of things.

I would say that the fact that someone will receive a 500K payout brings about new questions that are very valid as a trader.
  • #8,759
  • Jun 25, 2022 7:25pm Jun 25, 2022 7:25pm
I just noticed that theproptrading allows unlimited funding capital (with merging up to 500K for each account) so long as the accounts are traded separately. I do not know if they are any good since I have not been following anything on them, but this is an interesting detail.
  • #8,760
  • Jun 25, 2022 7:28pm Jun 25, 2022 7:28pm
Quoting Immortal99
....someone just got paid over $500k by FTMO .... meanwhle u guys are busy arguing how? how long? how when? how where? whom? whom what? how whom where?
It is true.

Everyone is nervous.

The world will not die.

The Prop business will not die too. ( Assuming )

The business will not die but new firms will come up with different rules.
We as traders, continue doing life time challenge.

ha..ha..
Intraday only.
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