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Anyone trading with a Prop firm 31 replies

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  • #8,681
  • Jun 23, 2022 4:30pm Jun 23, 2022 4:30pm
Quoting Boulder
How this FTMO Trader made over $500,000 record-breaking profit | FTMO https://youtu.be/LNbQtoscsuQ?t=67

I guess newbies would tolerate this interview. I cringed harder than I have ever cringed at the trade explanation parts which made 0 sense. If its real, its ok to just say "yeh i was lucky cos of market volatility". MACD.... weekly charts.. prop firm conditions... luck.
  • #8,682
  • Jun 23, 2022 4:39pm Jun 23, 2022 4:39pm
I would never do a video if I made 500K (in fact I would never do a video, no matter how little or how much I made)
  • #8,683
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:02pm Jun 23, 2022 5:02pm
Quoting Capablanca
I would never do a video if I made 500K (in fact I would never do a video, no matter how little or how much I made)

My faith in FTMO since the whole lamboraul thing and their videos is low. I trade with them, I enjoy collecting money when I can from them, but the weirdness in their threads, the scripted trustpilot reviews, a bit of knowledge on online marketing (especially low cost marketing) and its easy to distrust their content.

You are right though, showing the world you have 500k is kinda dumb. Unless you are trying to sell something based upon you making 500k or someone you know making 500k.
  • #8,684
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:14pm Jun 23, 2022 5:14pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I would say that no prop firm has really good traders. I am funded in 3 of them and I wouldn't consider my flow valuable, I just trade little. Investor money would be more interested in buying the business than trading. I am friends with some people who work for/own prop firms and can tell you that the life span of the prop traders in this market is very low. There is like 0.00001% that are at a few months of trading/getting paid. In my brokerage years I have seen some good traders but they all had an edge. The edge was either cheating/arb...
Welcome back Takisd, I enjoy reading your posts. I concur with all of your points with the exception of your definition of “trader”, because you click a mouse and give your credit card details to the Prop/bucket shop does this make you a trader and should you even be counted in the stats?

I’m coming up to a year trading with the same account with one particular prop firm and no one is knocking on my door making me an offer: ergo bucket shop and the business plan is “challenge fees”/wannabes. So yes, I believe you could be right, take them for what you can.
  • #8,685
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:19pm Jun 23, 2022 5:19pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I would say that no prop firm has really good traders. I am funded in 3 of them and I wouldn't consider my flow valuable, I just trade little. Investor money would be more interested in buying the business than trading. I am friends with some people who work for/own prop firms and can tell you that the life span of the prop traders in this market is very low. There is like 0.00001% that are at a few months of trading/getting paid. In my brokerage years I have seen some good traders but they all had an edge. The edge was either cheating/arb...
Anyone who has traded for more than 3 years will appreciate the truth that trading is the hardest way to make easy money due to the way it messes with your psychology. Totally agree with milking out as much as you can and putting those returns in something easier.
  • #8,686
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:24pm Jun 23, 2022 5:24pm
Quoting Fagin
{quote} Welcome back Takisd, I enjoy reading your posts. I concur with all of your points with the exception of your definition of “trader”, because you click a mouse and give your credit card details to the Prop/bucket shop does this make you a trader and should you even be counted in the stats? I’m coming up to a year trading with the same account with one particular prop firm and no one is knocking on my door making me an offer: ergo bucket shop and the business plan is “challenge fees”/wannabes. So yes, I believe you could be right, take them...
I dont think it's possible that these firms could have lasted this long if they didn't copy some small percentage of trades to live accounts in 1 way or another. Even if 90% of all traders failed challenges, the maths just wouldn't work out. One trader bagging 100k a month can take out the fess for 100 failed challenges.
  • #8,687
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:31pm Jun 23, 2022 5:31pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} I dont think it's possible that these firms could have lasted this long if they didn't copy some small percentage of trades to live accounts in 1 way or another. Even if 90% of all traders failed challenges, the maths just wouldn't work out. One trader bagging 100k a month can take out the fess for 100 failed challenges.

Its not 90%. I think the rate is closer to 98% and the ones who get to live generally lose the account before a payout. But its no different to a brokerage with people depositing and losing all. I dont think people should look at prop firms in a negative light just because they do what makes financial sense. But if people are going to enter prop they should decide on their approach.

Personally, I prefer the live to fight another day approach vs the all or nothing approach. I haven't broken any rules, I was in the clinic the days I would have likely lost my account fortunately and I thrive in these volatile days. When the market ranges again I will struggle and likely burn out and then start the process again.

That being said, yes some flow might be going to market without an opposing trade, but its not much. I think with FTMO its very little/none. Maybe some of the smaller ones are willing to take the losses by stping trades. The eightcap deals operate on rev share, so most likely someone thinks they are stping with a tiny rebate but eightcap is booking them and giving some tiny money back for it.

When I researched starting my own firm I couldnt find a way where it made sense to send the orders to the market despite the various models i have used as a broker before. I would have b-booked the crap out of it and you guys would have said "I am going to take you for all you are got" but I am fairly sure I would have come out on top.
  • #8,688
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:38pm Jun 23, 2022 5:38pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} I dont think it's possible that these firms could have lasted this long if they didn't copy some small percentage of trades to live accounts in 1 way or another. Even if 90% of all traders failed challenges, the maths just wouldn't work out. One trader bagging 100k a month can take out the fess for 100 failed challenges.
I really doubt these orders are going to market and I don’t really care. As long as it’s profitable and sustainable for me and them that’s okay.. keep the crappy utube videos coming and fees flowing as long as they pay me and I’m not dreaming of a career and pension plan with Christmas bonuses
  • #8,689
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:49pm Jun 23, 2022 5:49pm
Quoting Boulder
How this FTMO Trader made over $500,000 record-breaking profit | FTMO https://youtu.be/LNbQtoscsuQ?t=67
Boulder is that you? you are happily reaping 1k - 2k per day on EURUSD and some XAUUSD.
  • #8,690
  • Jun 23, 2022 5:54pm Jun 23, 2022 5:54pm
Quoting Fagin
{quote} I really doubt these orders are going to market and I don’t really care. As long as it’s profitable and sustainable for me and them that’s okay.. keep the crappy utube videos coming and fees flowing as long as they pay me and I’m not dreaming of a career and pension plan with Christmas bonuses
Exactly. If and when you are pulling 175-200% of your job income from the props, then it is a "consideration" to leave a job. You need to factor in benefits, 401K, pension, etc and when you can double that......then maybe. At that point, even if ALL of the props blew up at once, you should have banked enough to fund a substantial personal account.
  • #8,691
  • Edited 6:22pm Jun 23, 2022 6:02pm | Edited 6:22pm
Quoting mixedbags
{quote} Boulder is that you? you are happily reaping 1k - 2k per day on EURUSD and some XAUUSD.
No its not me, I hope I can become his level one day.
I just finished watching the interview, I really enjoyed it. Paul has my respect. Main things I got from his talking is that he has patience waiting for his trades and also he would add to the winning trades and make huge profits at the specific target levels
  • #8,692
  • Jun 23, 2022 8:08pm Jun 23, 2022 8:08pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Exactly. If this is treated like a business (as it should be), one would commit X amount of capital as start up costs. If the goal is to get funded 600K, 1 million, 2 million, whatever and YOU HAVE AN EDGE and know what kind of income you will earn once you get there, the number of passed/failed challenges becomes irrelevant (to a point, of course). To put it another way.......what would you pay for a business which you knew would generate you $300K in profit annually? 500K? 700K? Most traditional businesses take 3-5 years to become profitable...
Excellent post.

I infact, blown 2 MFF funded accounts, but collected 5200 usd one month before blowing that funded account. In that way, Blowing funded account does not matter to me.

Now I aim to do faster challenges but relatively slow funded account.

I have now 1x100k funded from TFF.

Though I was very much annoyed when MFF refused to pay me 50 %, as MM put it here, their offerings are good.

So, at some point i will go with MFF but after finishing 3 x100 with TFF.
Intraday only.
  • #8,693
  • Jun 23, 2022 8:26pm Jun 23, 2022 8:26pm
Quoting Inception12
{quote} To be honest, like pipmaster and takisd have pointed out many times, there are many ways people are approaching this prop firm business. Some take their time and trade with good risk mngt and are just looking for a way to make consistent monthly income while others are just going all in for the challenges and the live accounts and the math like pipmaster has pointed out many times, can still work in your favor even if you take a gambling approach to it. At the beginning, seeing people posting challenges passed in 1 day was annoying when...
Trust, me.

I was not trading " all in one " kind of trading like gambling.

All , I needed was a good set up.

Combination of repainting support/resistance indis with non repainting bolinger band. With tight stop loss always.

Look at the buy set up, that was provided in gbpusd , which I traded to win 8k.

Do you think it is not possible to make money in this buy move with this kind of set up ?

Posted FTMO demo chart, which I use to trade in funded/challenge accounts.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: FTMO MetaTrader 4.png Size: 51 KB
Intraday only.
  • #8,694
  • Jun 23, 2022 8:32pm Jun 23, 2022 8:32pm
Quoting Takisd
Personally, I prefer the live to fight another day approach vs the all or nothing approach.
-These days, I find myself weighing the idea of employing both strategies; having stable accounts for generating consistent income through reasonable trading, but also having a few side accounts to go heavy on, all through a totally separate firm. I am a strong believer in trading multiple accounts, keeping risk very low and earning small, consistent profits that are collectively capable of generating a very healthy income, however, the idea to expand on this may be worth the consideration.

I used to be worried to even try it, for fear of getting flagged and blacklisted or something, but after seeing FTMO bragging about a 500K payout, I am even more inclined to give it a try and set up a few fun accounts. Maybe it is the wrong way to think, but it is really tempting if I am being honest. It is certainly becoming harder to ignore, especially as more and more firms are promoting these kinds of bigger payouts as a good thing.

From a business perspective, maybe it is little different than a hedge fund allocating a percentage of capital to higher-risk investments. And since challenge fees can be treated as a tax write-off, then it becomes even more difficult for me to argue with. I suppose that the big question would then become whether or not this would adversely affect the firms enough for them to take notice and figure out ways to put a stop to it? It might be difficult to know without seeing the numbers.

I am inclined to think that they are likely killing it with failed challenge fees, though, and that most traders never even see a payout (especially if they are trading bigger lot sizes), even to the point that the profit from failures completely dwarfs any potential payout (at least for the bigger firms). And if my suspicious are correct, then it could be possible that they would not even be worried about the few traders that might see a higher payout so long as the trader is not doing anything that is prohibited or problematic in terms of trading and/or liquidity etc..

When we consider the likelihood that many firms are not pushing most (or any) trades to live market, then maybe the question of morality and ethics go out the window, as well as many of the technical arguments that might be made against the practice of high-risk trading. If these firms are profiting off of the backs of poor traders, then why not take advantage of that if you are good enough to do it? It may be a valid question.
  • #8,695
  • Jun 23, 2022 11:52pm Jun 23, 2022 11:52pm
Quoting Takisd
There is an interesting conversation going on in a circle I am in in regards to prop trading vs retail fx brokerage. My argument is that the statistics for win/lose are the same however, the cost of entry and potential reward is significantly larger for a retail trader by using an evaluation/challenge prop firm. Even from a gambling perspective, if you manage to get to live, you find on set up and go heavy on it. If you win, you coast till the payout and likely make 20-80x your original "deposit". To get 80x on a deposit at a retail broker it will...
I think there's so much to be said that's left unsaid, but I guess I understand why folks may not want to talk in public spaces. Do you know of any private hangouts to discuss trading/prop?
  • #8,696
  • Jun 24, 2022 12:30am Jun 24, 2022 12:30am
Quoting Capablanca
I would never do a video if I made 500K (in fact I would never do a video, no matter how little or how much I made)
Why ?
  • #8,697
  • Jun 24, 2022 12:57am Jun 24, 2022 12:57am
Quoting Feelas
{quote} Why ?
As Takisd already mentioned, unless you want to make money from being known as the guy that made 500K (selling services to suckers, etc.), you have zero advantage in exposing.

It's a fifteen minutes of fame moment that won't bring anything good in terms of tax purposes, people asking you money, being known in other props where you may have account, etc.

In this pseudo-prop firm business my mantra is to fly low, out of the radar, avoid being flagged (and receive everything possible in cryptos).
  • #8,698
  • Jun 24, 2022 1:35am Jun 24, 2022 1:35am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} As Takisd already mentioned, unless you want to make money from being known as the guy that made 500K (selling services to suckers, etc.), you have zero advantage in exposing. It's a fifteen minutes of fame moment that won't bring anything good in terms of tax purposes, people asking you money, being known in other props where you may have account, etc. In this pseudo-prop firm business my mantra is to fly low, out of the radar, avoid being flagged (and receive everything possible in cryptos).
Prop trading firms ask for Interview.

As a trader, who got money, 500k from them is obliged to give an interview.

That is what happens.

When I passed phase 2 for the first time with MFF, a team member approached me, I replied, after making some money, will give an interview.
Intraday only.
  • #8,699
  • Jun 24, 2022 2:24am Jun 24, 2022 2:24am
Quoting navk
{quote} Prop trading firms ask for Interview. As a trader, who got money, 500k from them is obliged to give an interview. That is what happens. When I passed phase 2 for the first time with MFF, a team member approached me, I replied, after making some money, will give an interview.
I wouldn't have to, either by contract or even morally. It would be like playing lottery and having to do photo shoots with the big check.
This is not a tennis tournament where you sign upfront some kind of image obligations, interviews, etc.

Unless they don't pay the 500K until you do the interview. In that case I would probably do it because it's an high amount but it would be quite unethical. I would do it, terminate relation (and probably expose them somehow, would have to sort out a way regarding T&C).
  • #8,700
  • Jun 24, 2022 3:01am Jun 24, 2022 3:01am
This is a bit offtopic, pardon to Mastermind, but if someone uses Coinbase to receive prop payouts and then send the coins somewhere else, please be warned that Coinbase will start requesting identification in those transfers. That's a bold move IMO (they say it's because of German regulators).

https://twitter.com/0xRodo/status/15...99847322607617

https://twitter.com/AutismCapital/st...17630366863360
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