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  • #8,081
  • May 21, 2022 1:06pm May 21, 2022 1:06pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} From a pure math perspective, MFF WOULD BE #1. Trading conditions are excellent as well. Customer service definitely lacking though.
From a pure math perspective TradersCentral would be #1 with an expectancy score of over 10. That means their offer is still about 50% better than what MFF is offering. But it is not that easy because you need to take into trading conditions aswell. And the many hidden rules at TradersCentral makes it more difficult too.
  • #8,082
  • May 21, 2022 1:16pm May 21, 2022 1:16pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Yep, E8 is horrible on that perspective. The worse among all the major ones.
I took into account the increased DD on every payout by 1% up to 14% at E8Funding as soft factor when comparing to other props. Then the calc score can change.
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  • #8,083
  • May 21, 2022 1:17pm May 21, 2022 1:17pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} From a pure math perspective TradersCentral would be #1 with an expectancy score of over 10. That means their offer is still about 50% better than what MFF is offering. But it is not that easy because you need to take into trading conditions aswell. And the many hidden rules at TradersCentral makes it more difficult too.
This $3,600 dollars math only applies for Challenge and Verification stage and not to the Funded $200,000 account, correct?
And we know that only 5-10% traders ever get to Funded Account.
  • #8,084
  • May 21, 2022 1:24pm May 21, 2022 1:24pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} I took into account the increased DD on every payout by 1% up to 14% at E8Funding as soft factor when comparing to other props. Then the calc score can change. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVOvbPJr7yE
Ahh, so you're probably talking about the other account ? I was just referring to the normal challenges 2 phase model. It's quite expensive per drawdown (the most expensive, in fact, of the ones I tried - I'm still in phase 1).
  • #8,085
  • May 21, 2022 1:29pm May 21, 2022 1:29pm
Quoting driven18
{quote} This $3,600 dollars math only applies for Challenge and Verification stage and not to the Funded $200,000 account, correct? And we know that only 5-10% traders ever get to Funded Account.
Yes.
  • #8,086
  • Edited 1:46pm May 21, 2022 1:33pm | Edited 1:46pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Ahh, so you're probably talking about the other account ? I was just referring to the normal challenges 2 phase model. It's quite expensive per drawdown (the most expensive, in fact, of the ones I tried - I'm still in phase 1).
Are E8 not increasing the DD on the normal 2 Phase challenges too ? Correct me if I am wrong as I did not invest any further time for evaluating here.
  • #8,087
  • May 21, 2022 1:40pm May 21, 2022 1:40pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} From a pure math perspective TradersCentral would be #1 with an expectancy score of over 10. That means their offer is still about 50% better than what MFF is offering. But it is not that easy because you need to take into trading conditions aswell. And the many hidden rules at TradersCentral makes it more difficult too.
Yeah, I haven't even considered them. In my opinion, they are not even relevant.
  • #8,088
  • May 21, 2022 3:15pm May 21, 2022 3:15pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Do not forget the important fact that, once funded, you are trading without any risk whatsoever (in most cases). The value of that is much more difficult to quantify.
Only to a very limited extent, because you are not really riskfree in that case in comparison. Just imagine when being funded and you need to do some profits to get your challenge fee back, one could also replicate this easily in that stadium of being funded on its own personal broker account by withdrawing the initial 'fee' too.
  • #8,089
  • May 21, 2022 3:32pm May 21, 2022 3:32pm
Quoting TrAndy1
Only to a very limited extent
-Not really.

Quoting TrAndy1
because you are not really riskfree in that case in comparison. Just imagine when being funded and you need to do some profits to get your challenge fee back,
-If a trader loses his/her account after being funded, prior to getting their refund back, then that is a complete failure on their part. Not much to say about that. Nonetheless, when I used the term 'once funded' I was obviously speaking about those that have been refunded their challenge fee. I will say that firms should issue a refund immediately, following successful completion of the challenge, and not require additional days of trading in order to qualify for it. I think that is bogus, personally.

Quoting TrAndy1
one could also replicate this easily in that stadium of being funded on its own personal broker account by withdrawing the initial 'fee' too.
-Sure, but it is a lot easier and quicker to get there with a prop firm. You cannot really compare the two unless you are lucky enough to have access to an incredible broker, but even then, it is still difficult to compare.
  • #8,090
  • May 21, 2022 3:45pm May 21, 2022 3:45pm
Quoting navk
I have seen stats in E 8 funding site which says some people achieved phase 1 and 2 target in 4 to 5 minutes. Can not believe this. Is this fake propaganda?
I believe it.

For such a small investment (about $200 with a discount for the 25K account) it makes sense that traders with disposable income would trade high risk to finish/fail the challenge quickly. I passed challenges with E8 in less than 24 hours a couple of times. If they are offering no lot size restrictions with no minimum days then the trader is free to play the game as they see fit.

To say that these prop firms are looking for consistent traders with impeccable risk management isn't quite the case in my opinion. Offering no lot size restriction with no minimum days with biweekly payments is the perfect marketing strategy to attract gamblers.(or at least traders with plenty of disposable income that prefer to trade with maximum risk during the challenge phase). If they pass the challenge and become a funded trader no problem. They can B-book them until they show some semblance of professional risk management. I'm sure these prop firms can analyze the metrics and mitigate the risk that funded gamblers pose to their bottom line. In the meantime, they have the fees to feed the machine.

I passed a couple of 10K phases with True Forex Funds in a few minutes and they had no problem with it. And why would they? I'm just playing by the rules they set.

Posted before but here's one where I traded a 4 lot trade with a 12 pip SL and a 20 pip TP. So I either lose $480 and live to play on day 2 or I win $800 and pass the challenge. In this case, I passed in 10-15 minutes.
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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #8,091
  • May 21, 2022 4:38pm May 21, 2022 4:38pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} I believe it. For such a small investment (about $200 with a discount for the 25K account) it makes sense that traders with disposable income would trade high risk to finish/fail the challenge quickly. I passed challenges with E8 in less than 24 hours a couple of times. If they are offering no lot size restrictions with no minimum days then the trader is free to play the game as they see fit. To say that these prop firms are looking for consistent traders with impeccable risk management isn't quite the case in my opinion. Offering no lot...
Exactly. Especially with the lower end price points. What did that cost you? $93. Now you essentially have a $1,000 account (10K with 10% DD). So you essentially took a 10.7:1 RR trade although it was truly a 1.6 RR in terms of pips. The folks doing it on the larger challenges either a. have deep pockets or b. are reinvesting profits from the props and/or personal accounts.
Definitely a high risk approach, but perhaps not considering you will begin generating profits on the funded account that much quicker.
  • #8,092
  • May 21, 2022 4:55pm May 21, 2022 4:55pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Only to a very limited extent, because you are not really riskfree in that case in comparison. Just imagine when being funded and you need to do some profits to get your challenge fee back, one could also replicate this easily in that stadium of being funded on its own personal broker account by withdrawing the initial 'fee' too.
Phase 1
Target 8%
Max loss 8%

Phase 2
Target 5%
Max loss 8%

Funded
Max loss 8%

That's among the worst in industry, considering that they are neither cheap than the others, nor offering more profit split.
Challenge 100K cost is 588 USD and 250K cost is 988 USD
(even applying the 8% discount code is expensive for the DD they have)
  • #8,093
  • Edited 5:36pm May 21, 2022 5:25pm | Edited 5:36pm
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} Phase 1 Target 8% Max loss 8% Phase 2 Target 5% Max loss 8% Funded Max loss 8% That's among the worst in industry, considering that they are neither cheap than the others, nor offering more profit split. Challenge 100K cost is 588 USD and 250K cost is 988 USD (even applying the 8% discount code is expensive for the DD they have)
So you say they are not increasing the max DD from 8% to 14% with every payout by 1% in the challenge model ? I will ask their support now, curious to know that.
As I know also TFT with the Rapid Challenge model have similar goal and DD figures to meet with. But you are right, if E8 is offering only 8% DD it is one of the worst.
Let me check this. If they do not increase the max DD on the challenge model, then I might not join them. I also did not know they charge commissions on FX now.
  • #8,094
  • May 21, 2022 5:35pm May 21, 2022 5:35pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} So you say they are not increasing the max DD from 8% to 14% with every payout by 1% in the challenge model ? I will ask their support now, curious to know that. As I know also TFT with the Rapid Challenge model have similar goal and DD figures to meet with. But you are right, if E8 is offering only 8% DD it is one of the worst.
I read FAQ and T&C and could not find anything like that regarding the challenge model. I may be wrong, though.
  • #8,095
  • May 21, 2022 7:18pm May 21, 2022 7:18pm
Quoting TrAndy1
{quote} Sorry to say MM, but I think you did not make the calculation properly. They want 10% profits to 5% DD two times and that in a row of only ca. 42 trading days. Just take a look on the price of $1590 for the 500k, so you get $25k as buffer here when funded. 90% of profits means about $22.5k equivalent as buffer. You call yourself an engineer, now just take only the Euler figure to that profits and DD values. At Euler with +10% to -5% (=2 as ratio) with two times in a row you have, (2.7^2)^2= ca. 53 times the inital fee. So with the $1590...
My post was correct for what I intended to post.

I was referring purely to price to play only and nothing else.

Simply stated the basic DD and profit target requirements for XLTrade and the fact that it would be rather difficult to pass but not impossible.

No calculations were performed nor intended in my post.

Certainly many factors need considering here but what I like about XLTrade or any Prop Firm offering a $500K challenge is the fact the trader is dealing with the one account and only 2 phases whereas the multiple challenges taken at the same time to meet $500K level requires additional management as in ensuring each account remains within the risk parameters set by the Prop Firm and that the trade copier (if used) maintains accurate trade copying afterall it is not unheard of to have an incorrect lot size carried over to a much smaller account causing potential breaches due to limits being exceeded.

This all stems from my interest in trading a single larger challenge account of the $500K to $1Million variety based on only needing to meet the objectives one or two times based on phases instead of multiple times over smaller challenges.

There are pros and cons to this approach ofcourse.

From my point of view the less challenges I need to take to reach the goal perhaps the better for me.

At this stage I have XLTrade on the backburner because I'm sure there is a much better offer out there somewhere or soon will be.

You can critically assess the values using Euler method but simple math is enough to let you know if the challenge of a particular Prop Firm is worth it or not.

In any case I welcome the use of mathematics here provided it is relevant to the situation being discussed and is explained in a clear and concise manner for those here without strong mathematical backgrounds like you and I.

I welcome your discussions here especially in mathematics provided they align with the thread and so far they do so all good.

Masterrmind ............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,096
  • May 21, 2022 8:18pm May 21, 2022 8:18pm
with the aussie election be careful with aud and its crosses and aus200 on monday opening labour and the greens are going to run the county
people leave, but this thread will go on for ever
  • #8,097
  • May 21, 2022 9:27pm May 21, 2022 9:27pm
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Hi MM That new TE you've posted - is that TopTenTraders? Can't see anything on their website!
Yes that is the 'new' tenTOPtraders challenge account T10T New Basill Challenge.

Let's share some information here:

1. I purchased a $100K challenge that cost me USD$240;

2. About a week after purchase the email from T10T came out stating that all their accounts had blown up in a single day and for traders to stop trading;

3.Those who had paid via PayPal would have received quick refunds but unfortunately for me that option was not available due to their payment gateway issues at the time and since the discount of 50% was very close to ending I chose to contact 'Sam' and requested his bank account details although a crypto deposit was also an option which I declined;

4. Enter Basill;

5. Basill came into the scene hard and fast in an attempt to resurrect the dead firm by offering new challenge accounts at greatly reduced demo capital levels to those or most of the traders using T10T;

6.I was provided a 'free' new challenge of the amount $20,000 which is provided in a public TE meaning 20% of the original value so as it turns out I have paid $240 for a $20K challenge and with modified tight rules;

7. I no longer will get the original 90 day trading term instead it will be 30 days and with other conditions;

8. I have sent details surrounding the original transaction to my bank to fully investigate but this process takes time to unfold (a major reason for using PayPal is the fact they return funds from dodgy operators very quickly and smoothly, I know from experience);

9. What's the connection between Sam and Basill ?
Who knows but Sam has alot of unanswered questions brewing away !

10. In the meantime I plan to trade the $20K challenge just for fun and see where it goes and I've added a TE specific to recovering the $240 fee "T10T Recovery Fee";

Here are the trading objectives for the $20K T10T challenge:
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Should be a breeze to pass !

Masterrmind ..........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,098
  • May 21, 2022 10:17pm May 21, 2022 10:17pm
30 seconds to copy trades? No way. If that is true, then that is unacceptable in my opinion.
  • #8,099
  • May 21, 2022 10:18pm May 21, 2022 10:18pm
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Yes that is the 'new' tenTOPtraders challenge account T10T New Basill Challenge. Let's share some information here: 1. I purchased a $100K challenge that cost me USD$240; 2. About a week after purchase the email from T10T came out stating that all their accounts had blown up in a single day and for traders to stop trading; 3.Those who had paid via PayPal would have received quick refunds but unfortunately for me that option was not available due to their payment gateway issues at the time and since the discount of 50% was very close to ending...
8% overall drawdown, 60% profit split, not a single review on Trust Pilot, Basil the resurrector missing in action for 3 weeks? I wouldn't touch tentoptraders with a ten foot pole.

But good luck. Hope it somehow works out
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #8,100
  • May 21, 2022 10:21pm May 21, 2022 10:21pm
Check out the 'Scale Up' on the post above !

Scaling Up sequence involves doubling the account twice, then after the hard work has been done they scale you at 20% for 20% gain.

Masterrmind ..........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
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