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  • #821
  • Feb 16, 2022 8:31pm Feb 16, 2022 8:31pm
Quoting ohitsyou
{quote}
Hi TT -- you pushed a button -- my hat is off to you...
Yeah -- no doubt my posts come across to some as "total comprehension".
And the best they can come up with is "master algo"?

Hi OIY,

Yeah -- no doubt my posts come across to some as "total comprehension".

Sir, please do not give yourself pain over any of this, or any such things in life, I might suggest.
Forex is merely a snippet of a fuller reality, that we can either enjoy ourselves or not.

Have you considered that
I may well have been just taking a dig at MYSELF in that old "total" comprehension part. You do not know.


You focus, maybe, so much on THE PROBLEM as you see it (and I am not diminishing that search at all)
that an ANSWER may even pass, or slip, through your fingers along the way (maybe, who knows).

- - - - -

Next,
And the best they can come up with is "master algo"?

When you have a moment mate, or a year lol, believe me, please revisit a paternal-forex figure Wyckoff
You will then see he once made a fascinating statement

I'm not going to bother searching for it, do so yourself if you wish,
yet Wyckoff himself suggested to traders, even way back then
to VIEW AND TRADE the market as if it were "run" by

a "Composite" man

ie even Wyckoff himself said he considered the paradigm of a "master algo", if you wish to stretch the imagination of his original phrase.


The problem you might be consumed with now, OIY, maybe is that you WANT to reduce EVERY possible move (or motivation)
within a Forex chart to an "Indi/Expert Advisor". As Code.


While cT, a quant, over on his "Education/Stupidity" thread has delved into his own forex education (lol wouldn't that be ironic) and detemined
that Forex is totally Random and he will now code around the last 1m bar (or a certain volume of mt4 ticks) and prove with trading success that
all forex education is misleading and the market is therefore RANDOM.

However, both a positive or negative quant-based result indi will still not become a TRUTH, just a perspective, or what you term a preference (of belief).


If it ends up you, OIY, who can code either Wykcoff's Composite Man, or some other forex paradigm,
and beat cT to the punch, then I will be very interested & certainly impressed pal.

Peace.
  • #822
  • Feb 16, 2022 8:35pm Feb 16, 2022 8:35pm
Quoting ohitsyou
{quote} The system: metric: current location on the trail (or ultimate destination) sensor: position of the cart on the trail (optimal is middle of the trail) feedback: pulling on the horse's reigns {quote} You mean his brain? Okay, say it was. The master algoists' goal is to reverse-engineer the cart driver's brain?
Have a video for you... reference back to when you mentioned a pendulum. It's interesting!

Inserted Video
  • #823
  • Feb 16, 2022 8:55pm Feb 16, 2022 8:55pm
Quoting moodybot
{quote} Have a video for you... reference back to when you mentioned a pendulum. It's interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT4EfwmY5qU
Okay. I started watching it and saw it was nearly an hour. I'll finish watching but I may not respond until tomorrow...
  • #824
  • Feb 16, 2022 8:57pm Feb 16, 2022 8:57pm
No sweat, you’ll enjoy the Math!
  • #825
  • Feb 16, 2022 9:37pm Feb 16, 2022 9:37pm
This movie clip tells the behind the scenes operation of the financial market. Peter Sullivan is the math geek who do up the risk assessment report.
Inserted Video
Know what you trade
  • #826
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:00pm Feb 16, 2022 10:00pm
Quoting TimeTells
{quote} Hi OIY, Yeah -- no doubt my posts come across to some as "total comprehension". Sir, please do not give yourself pain over any of this, or any such things in life, I might suggest. Forex is merely a snippet of a fuller reality, that we can either enjoy ourselves or not. Have you considered that I may well have been just taking a dig at MYSELF in that old "total" comprehension part. You do not know. You focus, maybe, so much on THE PROBLEM as you see it (and I am not diminishing that search at all) that an ANSWER may even pass, or slip, through...
Hello TT -- so, you know, I would really love to meet in person over beers and discuss forex with you. Posting comments on a public forum really doesn't cut it. And it leads to so many misunderstandings. I can sense that I'm about to go down a path I really didn't want to, but I can't seem to help myself -- so, here goes...

I'm not a forex history buff and haven't read Wykoff -- I mean, if one was interested in the history of forex (which I am not) and all the great theoreticians, where would one start? If I were to ask 100 traders I would get 100 different answers. But if we were sitting over beers and you said that Wykoff's "Composite Man" somehow extrapolated to "Master algo" I would roll my eyes and ask how so? The "word" algorithm was around in Wykoff's time. He knew what it was -- he could have used it but he didn't. Also, as you know, Wykoff developed indicators, right? Indicators are not consistent with master algo. Master algoists believe price has already been determined, in which case indicators are useless (sound familiar?). Indicators are used to monitor price in real-time. If price has been pre-determined then why bother using indicators...

You've referred to me before as a "reductionist". I'm not sure how that applies here -- but it does attempt to pigeon-hole me and the way I think. It is true that when approaching a complex or seemingly intractable problem I will try to simplify it by first breaking it down into smaller pieces that are solvable and then work up from there. But that is a tried and true approach. I challenge anyone to name 3 complex or intractable problems that were solved in the first pass or by not breaking them down and first solving simpler problems.

I've stated that anything that is not inanimate can be described as a system. We are surrounded by systems, whether you recognize it or not. If we are surrounded by systems and there is something we wish to understand then it behooves us to understand the system's properties. I mean, if you want to make a better dog food then doesn't it make sense to better understand dogs instead of owls? I challenge anyone to name 3 non-inanimate things (real or abstract) that can't be simplified and described as a system.

Now here's where I'm really going to get into trouble. This master algo thing has been going on for years. George claimed that he had broken its code. For awhile there was targets, targets, targets, then waves, waves, waves, then ??? Even the traders closest to him don't know how he traded and don't trade that way themselves. So, after all this time, and people and writings, you guys are no closer to what master algo means or how to explain it to a struggling trader in a way that could be used to improve their trading. master algo is based on the hope that one day the "master" algorithm will be reverse-engineered and then we'll be in forex heaven.

If you claim to trade what you see, then you aren't really a master algoist and I really have no idea why you would cling to it. Trading what you see, now, in real-time, is all that we can do. And if you have a good detective mind -- which you do have -- then you'll pick up enough clues that will make you a good discretionary trader. Why this obsession with believing if only we could reverse-engineer this master-algo that life would be wonderful? Sorry to say, but George lied when he would claim that he broke the code. Regardless if he is a nice man in person, that was shameful and FF is still dealing with it today. I mean it's all good reading, but hundreds of people were mislead and have collectively spent thousands of hours searching for clues of the master algo.

Over to you, TT...
  • #827
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:08pm Feb 16, 2022 10:08pm
Quoting moodybot
I'm telling you, reading the comments makes me realise how closely we are linked to the market. We get a little chat, consolidation, all in agreement then one drifts away, says something but recovers back into consolidation. Someone takes it the wrong way, gets tetchy and we get a major blowup in a completely different direction, and heads off at a fast pace usually on a different tangent. Once the steam has blown out we usually get a return back to normality with maybe a small remark that takes us back towards the steam. A couple of days or hours...
I just now took a closer look at the chart labels -- love it!!

PS: And I never use more than one emoji per post, so this is saying a lot!!
  • #828
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:14pm Feb 16, 2022 10:14pm
It may be few years late, it's always on the back of my mind what the issue was - it was not told. Now I get the complete picture.
Know what you trade
  • #829
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:33pm Feb 16, 2022 10:33pm
Quoting ohitsyou
{quote}
So, after all this time, and people and writings, you guys are no closer to what master algo means or how to explain it to a struggling trader in a way that could be used to improve their trading. master algo is based on the hope that one day the "master" algorithm will be reverse-engineered and then we'll be in forex heaven.

Hi OIY,

Well you have been gone from FF for such a long time. That you are now assigning something, to something, that is no longer sadly.

And not only that, with some vindictiveness which is quite surprising.


I have no real interest in an active Master Algo.

It would seem that is just your obsession.

The market has a behaviour.
The market has an expansion capability.
The market operates inside a closed environment.
As I see it.
I trade what I see. George's Target Theory explains it me perfectly.
I snuck 10 pips in a 60 pip GBPJPY run just then. I miss the start as I like confirmation. Then its Targets, same as it always.
Have a look at the just now GJ runner. Can you see George's targets all through the run?

The market is certainly not random in my eyes.
While calling the market a system puts it in a similar category of some master operation, like an algo ?
so maybe you are talking about the same thing with different words..

What I am trading is an illiquid retail forex market.
I have no connection on my mt4 with the real market imo,
that purportedly transacts upwards of 6 trillion dollars per day.

If you could show me a candle, or group of candles or a session where even one of those trillions came
onto my mt4 screen I would be interested to re-assess that area.

When you are programming next OIY I suggest you maybe adjust your thinking
to encompass what Wykcoff offered to traders as a paradigm. That might help give you a starting point.

Once you do, you might not get so lost as many of us traders can in avoiding such things as grinds.

I'm interested to hear about your efforts with your indi to grab the whole market systemic behaviour in one package
which might solve EVERYONE'S problem. And your own.

- - -

Oh, and yes, and re George wow. Hundreds of traders lost money.
I would need to see please some trades to examine when and where was a trade entered and exited.
Are you suggesting they were the same trades that George took, or would have taken.
If the losing trades were using any indicators to achieve this can I please have the parameters of the indis
(maybe the tma-tru / lwma) they used so that can also be compared.

Do you know if all the hundreds of traders you mention were all using the same indi parameter setup on the same timeframes.
That would help me assess your suggestion more fully to satisfy my mind of what you are even talking about.
And some exit / close trade price positions also.

I can then at least examine what you have posted is verifiable. And not just some venom rhetoric.
Losing trades, how could that happen.
Well they do unfortunately OIY, we've all experienced a losing trade.
I've made losing trades from my OWN setups by not stringently adhering to them.
I do not blame anyone for that.

But interesting you choose now to appoint blame to a person, on behalf of others.


I'll post the link to George's first thread
Where George made mention many times he was not an educator, but one trying to get traders to think for themselves.
To be boundless, as it were.
Can you isolate just a few posts to help me better understand the nature of your venom today.

Over to you OIY

https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...core-tma-intra?
  • #830
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:43pm Feb 16, 2022 10:43pm
Ukraine forces fired some bombs an hour ago. That's not good, things are going south quickly.

Gentlemen, don't you think it's better to de-escalate ? Pls
Know what you trade
  • #831
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:51pm Feb 16, 2022 10:51pm
Quoting BWilliam
Ukraine forces fired some bombs an hour ago. That's not good, things are going south quickly. Gentlemen, don't you think it's better to de-escalate ? Pls

Most likely it happened, but could be a false flag.... Master Algo manipulating a confrontation.
  • #832
  • Feb 16, 2022 10:56pm Feb 16, 2022 10:56pm
Quoting BWilliam
Ukraine forces fired some bombs an hour ago. That's not good, things are going south quickly. Gentlemen, don't you think it's better to de-escalate ? Pls

I'm trying to figure out whether or not this is real, because the news on that sputnik website is possible propaganda. It's a state-owned Russian government news agency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_(news_agency)
Trying my best.
  • #833
  • Feb 16, 2022 11:08pm Feb 16, 2022 11:08pm
Quoting ohitsyou
{quote} Hello TT -- so, you know, I would really love to meet in person over beers and discuss forex with you. Posting comments on a public forum really doesn't cut it. And it leads to so many misunderstandings. I can sense that I'm about to go down a path I really didn't want to, but I can't seem to help myself -- so, here goes... I'm not a forex history buff and haven't read Wykoff -- I mean, if one was interested in the history of forex (which I am not) and all the great theoreticians, where would one start? If I were to ask 100 traders I would...


"Indicators are not consistent with master algo."
(OK here's where you've already gone off course thinking you know what you dont know,,,, ....You're still butthurt that George used the term "USELESS indicators" and you are assuming indicators are part of the algo. They are not. They are tools used to help determine precise entries and exits. )


Master algoists believe price has already been determined, in which case indicators are useless (sound familiar?). Indicators are used to monitor price in real-time. If price has been pre-determined then why bother using indicators... (SMH)


Even the traders closest to him don't know how he traded and don't trade that way themselves.
(100% wrong . I know very well how George trades and learned a great deal from George and incorporate it into "my style of trading" as we are not Robots )



master algo is based on the hope that one day the "master" algorithm will be reverse-engineered and then we'll be in forex heaven.
(Well wrong again...Only a ignorant fool would think you could reverse engineer the algo...and truly only the biggest ignorant fool believes in forex heaven,,,,, geesh..)



Trading what you see, now, in real-time, is all that we can do. ( well this i admit is what i used to think...... BUT i have learned in this past year that is not conducive to high performance trading. You see what you want to see...Not what you need to see that my only HINT )


Sorry to say, but George lied when he would claim that he broke the code.
(Well once again WRONG,,,, you simply are not privy to that info....and why would he share with you someone who has done nothing but bash him? )


Regardless if he is a nice man in person, that was shameful and FF is still dealing with it today. I mean it's all good reading, but hundreds of people were mislead and have collectively spent thousands of hours searching for clues of the master algo.
(LOL !!!! the word Butthurt comes to my mind once again ,,, No one was mislead. People are LAZY bottomline. Thats a good thing if people have spent thousands of hours studying....,,,... perhaps they might learn something and have their eyes opened up... May i suggest it is where you start. No free lunches for no one.)

Over to you, TT...

OHH and BTW I do use lines on my chart.....i think one would find that the worlds best day/swing traders use lines on their charts all in their own way

CHEERS
Blue
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #834
  • Feb 16, 2022 11:43pm Feb 16, 2022 11:43pm
Quoting TimeTells
cheers OIY,
FX is NOT random in my eyes either
While in the end it's probably closer to just whether we all got our forex-bifoculs from OPSM, Specsavers or any one of the other optometry houses ()
And THEN, after that, it is not the charts, and not the viewpoints
BUT HOW WE TRADE IT ALL !
all the best folks . {image}

The chart attached to the above post a few days ago might explain visually what I call
Market BEHAVIOUR,
Without discussing either the why, or how we would code it.
Open that past chart up, to get a 1hr overview in reference to the new 15m chart posted below. 156.160 is the (horizontal) line.



Rather than thinking what market behaviour means,
It might help to just see what it LOOKS like in, real time.


We had a quick spike event in GBPJPY a short while back today.

I have one eye on the charts on one eye on the thread lol,
I entered late at the end of the spike looking after it hit George’s Target at 156.190

I wait to see whether price then goes that 'extra pip or so' down to my Inflection Line (yep, it's horizontal & a light blue shade).


From there it's the beginning of a market “behaviour” setup for me, I see them over & over.


The maths run has already been done,
and the Target run also,
so now it's really just a “little” patience waiting for a flip & confirm back
not really a reversal trade, but a NEW directional momentum trade just in the opposite direction.

The trade was not taken immediately, I waited 7 x 1min bars for this purely discretionary trade
and was closed TP at 10 pips after comms (even though the full move went back some 30 pips, so be it,
I don’t know what the market will do during such VOLATILITY so ten was great and my day is now DONE) .


When I was assessing all this some 3-4 months the confluence of both Inflection & a George Target was just
TOO frequent to be a random event, yet AGAIN,

So to me it’s now just ... Market “Behaviour”

156.160 - AGAIN, right to THE line.
why ???? I reaally mean, W H Y , would price in a SPIKE return to that exact inflection as printed days ago (not s/r as written on that chart either)
Repeatable.
I can only suggest our retail forex mt4 market is ... NON-RANDOM
(and maybe very well organised, over & above all the simple buyers & sellers putting in their bids & asks, at the time).

.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: GBPJPYM15 behaviour.png Size: 39 KB
  • #835
  • Feb 17, 2022 12:09am Feb 17, 2022 12:09am
Quoting TimeTells
So to me it’s now just ... Market “Behaviour” 156.160 - AGAIN, right to THE line. why ???? I reaally mean, W H Y , would price in a SPIKE return to that exact inflection as printed days ago (not s/r as written on that chart either) Repeatable. I can only suggest our retail forex mt4 market is ... NON-RANDOM (and maybe very well organised, over & above all the simple buyers & sellers putting in their bids & asks, at the time). . {image}
The WHY is as I have explained it earlier, the alleged Ukraine bombs gave the market reason to trade quickly towards this lower boundary, then decide that it will not trade below this price this time around - the big boss did not pick up his red phone to give the instruction. This is my perceived version. Lol
Know what you trade
  • #836
  • Feb 17, 2022 12:16am Feb 17, 2022 12:16am
Quoting BWilliam
{quote}
The WHY is as I have explained it earlier, the alleged Ukraine bombs gave the market reason to trade towards this lower boundary,

Cheers BW,

Mate I meant WHY go to ...
156.160,
why not another 20 pips or 25 pips, why stop at George's Target & Inflection.

The why to a price point I am observing over & over LOOKS - organistional,
The timing (bombs, red news, etc) of any such move is merely - OPPORTUNITY - imo
  • #837
  • Feb 17, 2022 1:03am Feb 17, 2022 1:03am
I should have gone fishing...
  • #838
  • Feb 17, 2022 1:04am Feb 17, 2022 1:04am
Quoting TimeTells
Cheers BW, Mate I meant WHY go to ... 156.160, why not another 20 pips or 25 pips, why stop at George's Target & Inflection. The why to a price point I am observing over & over LOOKS - organistional, The timing (bombs, red news, etc) of any such move is merely - OPPORTUNITY - imo
Hi Pete, lets throw in more organisational regularity into that move. Lol. Cheers
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: gj1.PNG Size: 39 KB
Know what you trade
  • #839
  • Feb 17, 2022 1:13am Feb 17, 2022 1:13am
Quoting BWilliam
{quote}
Hi Pete, lets throw in more organisational regularity into that move. Lol. Cheers {image}

BW, that would have then been 3 levels of confluence for me equals = a GOLD plated trade

I dont have those short term 127 fibos on my main charts any more, and price was moving very quickly,
sometimes as a discretionary trader you've gotta jump right in and just grab your daily biscuits on the fly
  • #840
  • Feb 17, 2022 2:32am Feb 17, 2022 2:32am
Quoting ohitsyou
I should have gone fishing...
Kevin, Pete and I will have a chat and perhaps get you on Skype......
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