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  • #4,281
  • Sep 30, 2021 3:04am Sep 30, 2021 3:04am
Quoting jasjit
People on TCF Telegram chat claiming "TCF offering 8% Profit target for Stage 1 and 4% for stage 2" effective from Monday. I wonder whare this will lead to?
TCF?
Trading is SIMPLE not EASY.
  • #4,282
  • Sep 30, 2021 3:08am Sep 30, 2021 3:08am
Traders Central Fund https://www.traderscentral.com
  • #4,283
  • Sep 30, 2021 4:29am Sep 30, 2021 4:29am
Quoting diamond1011
{quote} LUX looks like a real deal but leverage is just 1:10, mostly the same conservative approach as 5ers. FTMO and MFF are also worth a try if you prefer their "aggressive" approaches.
1:10 Leverage is insane. On a 150.000 live account you can trade 15 lots. With 500k , 50 lots. Now the question is: who has the guts and the experience for trade with such insane sizes with hard gained live account, (other people's money). 1:10 it's far beyond enough imho.
  • #4,284
  • Sep 30, 2021 4:46am Sep 30, 2021 4:46am
Quoting HoLoTrader
{quote} 1:10 Leverage is insane. On a 150.000 live account you can trade 15 lots. With 500k , 50 lots. Now the question is: who has the guts and the experience for trade with such insane sizes with hard gained live account, other people's money. 1:10 it's far beyond enough imho.
Why would it be insane? Leverage on its own is neither good nor bad. You're not forced to use it and even if you trade maximum lots it allows (btw. it doesn't have to be 15 for 150k account) the risk always depends on the context such as the traded asset, time frame, momentary market conditions etc.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #4,285
  • Sep 30, 2021 4:51am Sep 30, 2021 4:51am
Talk about a spanner in the market..

I am not used to expo33 not posting memes with jessicas fresh pics.... I wonder if Josie will be providing us all happiness soon.
  • #4,286
  • Edited 8:39am Sep 30, 2021 5:08am | Edited 8:39am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Why would it be insane? Leverage on its own is neither good nor bad. You're not forced to use it and even if you trade maximum lots it allows (btw. it doesn't have to be 15 for 150k account) the risk always depends on the context such as the traded asset, time frame, momentary market conditions etc.

The core point was that 1:10 it's "low" and restrictive, but i don't think, especially if we are talking about other people's money and big accounts. With 50 lots even if you aim for 20 pips we are talking about 10.000 dollars with one lil trade. How can be this objectively considered low? Maybe for the people aiming to buy 100 millions Yacht yes it's a restrictive leverage

It's a responsability to open max leverage allowed with other's a$$. Even if the risk is calculated
  • #4,287
  • Edited 9:47am Sep 30, 2021 9:37am | Edited 9:47am
Quoting HoLoTrader
{quote} The core point was that 1:10 it's "low" and restrictive, but i don't think, especially if we are talking about other people's money and big accounts. With 50 lots even if you aim for 20 pips we are talking about 10.000 dollars with one lil trade. How can be this objectively considered low? Maybe for the people aiming to buy 100 millions Yacht yes it's a restrictive leverage It's a responsability to open max leverage allowed with other's a$$. Even if the risk is calculated
1:10 and 4% DD is quite a lot for the long term, steady account building.
What I found as the worst offer in this business that does not suit my strategy at all is T4T. They also have 1:10 and 4% DD but with a 2% weekly DD limit. That's a really challenging (or rather annoying)
  • #4,288
  • Sep 30, 2021 10:09am Sep 30, 2021 10:09am
My take on LUX
I used the middle offering, but numbers play out the same......You pay $500 for $400 in DD, which you have to make 150% to get to $600, repeat again and then you get 65% of $600. DD now goes to $4000, you now need to make 250% to get to 10000. If you put the $500 in a personal account, you can actually trade bigger size positions and I'll let everyone just run their own numbers from there. With FTMO/MFF eval/challenge model, you pay $500-600 for 10-12K in DD....much better deal folks. I truly don't understand why everyone keeps falling for these "scale to 2.5 million" models.
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  • #4,289
  • Sep 30, 2021 10:20am Sep 30, 2021 10:20am
Quoting pipmaster77
My take on LUX I used the middle offering, but numbers play out the same......You pay $500 for $400 in DD, which you have to make 150% to get to $600, repeat again and then you get 65% of $600. DD now goes to $4000, you now need to make 250% to get to 10000. If you put the $500 in a personal account, you can actually trade bigger size positions and I'll let everyone just run their own numbers from there. With FTMO/MFF eval/challenge model, you pay $500-600 for 10-12K in DD....much better deal folks. I truly don't understand why everyone keeps falling...
I hate to say that but most traders are not able to count. That's why lots and pips have been invented :-P
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #4,290
  • Edited 11:26am Sep 30, 2021 11:09am | Edited 11:26am
Quoting pipmaster77
My take on LUX I used the middle offering, but numbers play out the same......You pay $500 for $400 in DD, which you have to make 150% to get to $600, repeat again and then you get 65% of $600. DD now goes to $4000, you now need to make 250% to get to 10000. If you put the $500 in a personal account, you can actually trade bigger size positions and I'll let everyone just run their own numbers from there. With FTMO/MFF eval/challenge model, you pay $500-600 for 10-12K in DD....much better deal folks. I truly don't understand why everyone keeps falling...
It's not only about pure math and counting pennies.

1. IMO it's only a matter of time when MFF and FTMO disappear for whatever reason (most probably due to regulatory intervention, or when the challenge fees stream stops).
2. You completely forgot to calculate the psychological effect in. 500$ on a 1:500 account can work for someone who is disciplined and emotionally stable, but if one is inclined rather to FTMO type of "challenge" (the quick win cowboy style) then it's just a question for how long that personal account survives.

IMO LUX is the only legitimate prop firm with the potential of long term resilience in the business
  • #4,291
  • Sep 30, 2021 11:13am Sep 30, 2021 11:13am
Quoting pipmaster77
My take on LUX I used the middle offering, but numbers play out the same......You pay $500 for $400 in DD, which you have to make 150% to get to $600, repeat again and then you get 65% of $600. DD now goes to $4000, you now need to make 250% to get to 10000. If you put the $500 in a personal account, you can actually trade bigger size positions and I'll let everyone just run their own numbers from there. With FTMO/MFF eval/challenge model, you pay $500-600 for 10-12K in DD....much better deal folks. I truly don't understand why everyone keeps falling...
Haven't you heard. Getting a live account up front with no trading history is safer for a company than an evaluation system.
  • #4,292
  • Sep 30, 2021 11:31am Sep 30, 2021 11:31am
Quoting mcquak
{quote} It's not only about pure math and counting pennies. 1. IMO it's only a matter of time when MFF and FTMO disappear for whatever reason (most probably due to regulatory intervention, or when the challenge fees stream stops). 2. You completely forgot to calculate the psychological effect in. 500$ on a 1:500 account can work for someone who is disciplined and emotionally stable, but if one is inclined rather to FTMO type of "challenge" (the quick win cowboy style) then it's just a question for how long that personal account survives. IMO LUX...
Well you wouldn't need the 500:1 leverage. If you have a risk of ruin of let's say 20 trades. You would be risking $20 per trade in the LUX account and $25 per trade in the personal account. If your average target is say 50 pips with 1:1 RR (for argument's sake) , you're trading 50 cents per pip or 10:1 leverage. FTMO and MFF both execute, fees are not the only stream of income. Firms like LUX are taking on no risk, you are simply funding your own account, the cool part is they only charge you 35% of your profits to do so.
  • #4,293
  • Sep 30, 2021 11:50am Sep 30, 2021 11:50am
Quoting mcquak
{quote} It's not only about pure math and counting pennies. 1. IMO it's only a matter of time when MFF and FTMO disappear for whatever reason (most probably due to regulatory intervention, or when the challenge fees stream stops). 2. You completely forgot to calculate the psychological effect in. 500$ on a 1:500 account can work for someone who is disciplined and emotionally stable, but if one is inclined rather to FTMO type of "challenge" (the quick win cowboy style) then it's just a question for how long that personal account survives. IMO LUX...
1. I dare to say 6+ years (FTMO) is long enough time to have the business concept proven and set up so that to be able to react to the challenge fee stream fluctuations (I don't believe it will dry up completely anytime soon) or to trigger attention of the regulatory body should there be any reason for that
2. You're right the psychological effect plays a crucial role here but much lower leverage is needed for the personal account and so the impact would not be so dramatic
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #4,294
  • Edited 12:33pm Sep 30, 2021 11:50am | Edited 12:33pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Well you wouldn't need the 500:1 leverage. If you have a risk of ruin of let's say 20 trades. You would be risking $20 per trade in the LUX account and $25 per trade in the personal account. If your average target is say 50 pips with 1:1 RR (for argument's sake) , you're trading 50 cents per pip or 10:1 leverage. FTMO and MFF both execute, fees are not the only stream of income. Firms like LUX are taking on no risk, you are simply funding your own account, the cool part is they only charge you 35% of your profits to do so.
Fair enough, but again it's still pure math.

From the experience I have gained in trading, it does not work like that. It's not possible to count every single aspect in. It's pure theory. If all, that can eventually happen, could be considered upfront, everybody would be millionaires, is not it?
My strategy requires opening more trades on 2 - 3 types of products at once (sort of statistical arbitrage), so I need to have some margin I can use as a buffer.

Last but not least, I paid "only" 500$ 499 GBP - 15.5% for the evaluation which perfectly aligns with your logic. My 600$ available DD is higher than 422$ 569$ I paid for the eval

[Update] Actually, I paid 499 GBP - 15.5% , so it's 569$, apologies for misinfo.

Quoting Vitore
{quote} 1. I dare to say 6+ years (FTMO) is long enough time to have the business concept proven and set up so that to be able to react to the challenge fee stream fluctuations (I don't believe it will dry up completely anytime soon) or to trigger the attention of the regulatory body should there be any reason for that
I wrote that's my opinion, I'm not saying it happens for sure. I made my own due diligence and came to the conclusion not to go with FTMO (yet; you know how Milos says, only stupid one does not change opinions ).
  • #4,295
  • Edited 12:50pm Sep 30, 2021 12:38pm | Edited 12:50pm
Quoting pipmaster77
My take on LUX I used the middle offering, but numbers play out the same......You pay $500 for $400 in DD, which you have to make 150% to get to $600, repeat again and then you get 65% of $600. DD now goes to $4000, you now need to make 250% to get to 10000. If you put the $500 in a personal account, you can actually trade bigger size positions and I'll let everyone just run their own numbers from there. With FTMO/MFF eval/challenge model, you pay $500-600 for 10-12K in DD....much better deal folks. I truly don't understand why everyone keeps falling...
TLDR: Dont go for their $100,000. It is still a good choice but it dont worth so much.
Aim for their $150,000.

The key here is the R:R ratio. 150k has less stages overall, thus saving up a lot of time to reach higher capital.

It is better to trade own money than trading with lux?
Not necessary, assume that you traded your own money with $400 instead paying to lux, you will actually reach 5625 instead of getting 5200 as the allowed trading capital, thus showing that if you trade your own money with the stated R:R ratio, you will have a higher capital.

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HOWEVER, the benefit of trading with lux is that IF you loses all the money, you actually dont lose anything cause the 5200 is not your actual money. This is not the case if you trade yourself, you lose all your capital.

I dont think FTMO is a valid comparison with it as there is time limit. The question that I will ask if i want to join FTMO is if you were given 8 trials of demo account, are you able to flip a 400% within a 3 consecutive months timeframe?
Why within 8 trials? Because of the profit split ratio with FTMO. 80/20, thus you are better off trading your money if you loses more than 8 times.
Why 400%? Because their R:R ratio is 1:1, they give you $10,000 drawdown, they expect $10,000 profit.
In their plan, they have 2 stages, thus you need to flip 2 times 100% which results in 400%.

I prefer lux as there is no timelimit, and the leverage doesnt really affect that much as i normally trade at a higher pips range ~100 pips.
Of course, the higher the leverage the better if applied to personal trading, but remember also leverage != profitability.
  • #4,296
  • Sep 30, 2021 2:08pm Sep 30, 2021 2:08pm
Looks like MFF is under a bit of strain after influx of new members jumping ship form FT.

Good for them, hope it doesn't affect current clients as I'm still waiting for my phase 2 credentials going on 36 hours now.
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Truth is like poetry. And most people f*cking hate poetry.
  • #4,297
  • Sep 30, 2021 2:10pm Sep 30, 2021 2:10pm
Quoting mrdfx
Looks like MFF is under a bit of strain after influx of new members jumping ship form FT. Good for them, hope it doesn't affect current clients as I'm still waiting for my phase 2 credentials going on 36 hours now. {image}

Untouched here. but a friend of mine wanted to reset and has to wait so that could probably be annoying. Alas, they don't seem to be worried about not having all these new challenges to fail so good for them.
  • #4,298
  • Sep 30, 2021 2:14pm Sep 30, 2021 2:14pm
Quoting pipmaster77
My take on LUX I used the middle offering, but numbers play out the same......You pay $500 for $400 in DD, which you have to make 150% to get to $600, repeat again and then you get 65% of $600. DD now goes to $4000, you now need to make 250% to get to 10000. If you put the $500 in a personal account, you can actually trade bigger size positions and I'll let everyone just run their own numbers from there. With FTMO/MFF eval/challenge model, you pay $500-600 for 10-12K in DD....much better deal folks. I truly don't understand why everyone keeps...
Because you trade on a Demo account. Real hedge funds doesn't permit to the traders risking more than 4% of real money.. In high-level professional environment, investors doesn't even think to invest in your portfolio if your track record has a DD beyond 1.5%. Retails logic is totally different from the ones with the real millions in the pocket who are in the trading industry
  • #4,299
  • Sep 30, 2021 2:35pm Sep 30, 2021 2:35pm
Quoting HoLoTrader
{quote} Because you trade on a Demo account. Real hedge funds doesn't permit to the traders risking more than 4% of real money.. In high-level professional environment, investors doesn't even think to invest in your portfolio if your track record has a DD beyond 1.5%. Retails logic is totally different from the ones with the real millions in the pocket who are in the trading industry

account for leverage in your calculations.

The retailers don't fail to understand returns, they fail to understand liquidity and how the bigger you go the less leverage you get and your % returns deminish.
  • #4,300
  • Sep 30, 2021 2:44pm Sep 30, 2021 2:44pm
Quoting daniellive
{quote} TLDR: Dont go for their $100,000. It is still a good choice but it dont worth so much. Aim for their $150,000. The key here is the R:R ratio. 150k has less stages overall, thus saving up a lot of time to reach higher capital. It is better to trade own money than trading with lux? Not necessary, assume that you traded your own money with $400 instead paying to lux, you will actually reach 5625 instead of getting 5200 as the allowed trading capital, thus showing that if you trade your own money with the stated R:R ratio, you will have a higher...
Not quite correct, you pay $650 for 100K challenge with FTMO, it's 10% stage 1 , 5% stage 2. That would give you $1875 in a personal account. However, you now will have 10K in DD with FTMO and fee refunded vs. the 1875 in personal account. Fee is refunded even if you make 0.0001% that third month.
MFF even better they give you 12K to make 8K first stage, same 5% second stage for $499 fee. This would yield $1,252 in personal account vs. 12K DD now tradeable with MFF, once again with fee refunded regardless of profit in month 3.
LUX, 5%ers, CTI are not even remotely close to the value FTMO or MFF offer. If you are not going to use an MFF/FTMO challenge/eval type firm, you are way better off NOT using a prop firm at all. You also mention failing 8 times, this is with 10% or 12% DD. Lux gives you 4%, how many retakes would you need to be equivalent there. Plus, you're still 4% the entire time.
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