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  • #2,281
  • Jul 13, 2021 3:13am Jul 13, 2021 3:13am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} IS that MFF? I dont see the US30 spread that wide. Its 160 right now.
I see the spread on US30 at 260 more often than not
Dax is at 110 most of the time
  • #2,282
  • Jul 13, 2021 3:56am Jul 13, 2021 3:56am
Quoting geoffrod
{quote} I see the spread on US30 at 260 more often than not Dax is at 110 most of the time
They don't want you to trade them, cos it's much easier than the std forex pairs.
Look Left Trade Right
  • #2,283
  • Jul 13, 2021 4:12am Jul 13, 2021 4:12am
Quoting mcquak
{quote} They are mentioning funding but it's buried deep under a lot of other "talkings" and no details about the conditions. {image} {quote} Yeah, they have got some XP points you can exchange for something. One can earn XP points by learning but XP can be also bought.... {image} Let's see how they show up... I found they use some obscure broker I never heard of before Forex Broker | CFD Trading | 1Market Even though 1Market offers MT5 platform but so far the Queensway does not seem to be a reasonable choice...
Looking forward to your update in due course.

Masterrmind ........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #2,284
  • Jul 13, 2021 7:30am Jul 13, 2021 7:30am
Quoting geoffrod
{quote} I see the spread on US30 at 260 more often than not Dax is at 110 most of the time
I only trade session time, so I don't know outside session time. Not sure why someone would trade US30 outside of session tbh.
  • #2,285
  • Jul 13, 2021 11:31am Jul 13, 2021 11:31am
Just got my first payment from MFF
Nice!
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it
  • #2,286
  • Jul 14, 2021 2:11am Jul 14, 2021 2:11am
Quoting geoffrod
{quote} I see the spread on US30 at 260 more often than not Dax is at 110 most of the time
FT spread not even one point a lot of the time
  • #2,287
  • Jul 14, 2021 4:47am Jul 14, 2021 4:47am
Let's say you are risking 2% per trade with 2:1 reward:risk model on your own account, and you are doing well and your account is growing. You're trading 4H charts and maybe taking 2 or 3 trades a week. Swing trading. Making money with a prop firm seems simple in this scenario. Just take a few hundred pounds/dollars/whatever from your main account, and get started with something like the 5ers at the lowest priced account.

All you have to do is this. When you enter a trade on your main account, just enter the same trade on your prop firm account. All you need to do is enter the same trade on your prop firm account, albeit with smaller % of risk. When you take a loss, lower the % of risk a little bit. When you take a win, increase the % of risk a little bit. This works as the 5ers use absolute drawdown as opposed to relative drawdown. Over time you will get moved up the tiers until they have you on the highest account level.

So you can grow your own equity in your own account, and make an income from a prop firm account at the same time.

I haven't taken the plunge with a prop firm yet, but I'm balls deep in researching them and quite close to signing up with one. Probably the 5ers.

It seems pretty simple based on my thoughts above. Am I missing something?

Thanks for reading.
  • #2,288
  • Jul 14, 2021 5:06am Jul 14, 2021 5:06am
Quoting endgame99
@pipmaster77 I was little suspicious about your comment about prop firms with 4%DD and that it is more profitable to use fee and trade it in personal live account. So I decided to do proper calculations to convince myself. Here are the numbers (I hope I haven't made any mistakes). I'm using CTI $70K account as an example. Result = you were right, 2x growth plan is amazing marketing tool. I hope this will help others to make it easier to visualize the comparison between choosing this particular prop model and using fee in your own personal live account....
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: CTI vs Real.png Size: 45 KB


It has been said many times that 5ers and CTI models, where fee is = or > than available DD is not worth it. You can even see I made a spreadsheet proving that you're better off putting money in your own account and trade it. Numbers don't lie and difference after few levels is significant.

Let me play devil's advocate with my own earlier opinion about such model and provide counter-argument saying that this model does have advantages.
First, it is better to trade other people's money from psychology point of view. Trading your own account may become harder and harder as the account balance grows.
Second, that spreadsheet doesn't take into account that on CTI model trader gets paid after completing each level. If you trade your own account you do have to keep all profits in your account. So let's look at the 3rd level. With CTI you have $5,600 available DD and in your own account already $8,585. Now, the thing is what if you violate max.DD? You get kicked out from CTI and you wipe out your own account. Who is better off now? If you trade your own account, you've lost all and if you traded with CTI, you've banked $5,862.50 profits from first two levels profit splits.

Level 3 completed.
CTI - $11,200 max.DD and paid profits of $16,362.50
Own Account - $35,498 and now if you pay yourself same amount as in CTI model, then your account drops to $19,135.50, which is almost double of CTI

So, if you decide to trade your own account, you will have to wait till you complete level 3 to start taking some money out as profits. And once you start taking some profits out of your own account, next levels won't have such crazy dollar amounts as shown on the spreadsheet.
With CTI you're almost risk free after 1st profit split. with your own account you're running large risk until you complete level 3. stress and pressure to perform play huge role in trader's psychology.
Therefore I think that probability that you manage to complete level 3 and get paid something from your own account is considerably much lower than if you were trading CTI account and be free of stress and pressure to perform.

If you are very skilled trader, then keep trading your own account. But then again why run a risk of losing your own money when you could just go for FTMO/MFF Challenges and get multiple $200K accounts.
If you don't want the stress of trading your own account and you hate time pressure of FTMO/MFF Challenges, then stop listening to what other's think and just sign up for CTI or 5ers, take your time and scale your account slowly and eventually you will get where you want to go.

*numbers on the spreadsheet are not true anymore because CTI recently changed max.DD from 4% to 5% and also they adjusted scaling plan, but for example sake they still work just fine
  • #2,289
  • Jul 14, 2021 5:55am Jul 14, 2021 5:55am
Quoting bluepanido
Let's say you are risking 2% per trade with 2:1 reward:risk model on your own account, and you are doing well and your account is growing. You're trading 4H charts and maybe taking 2 or 3 trades a week. Swing trading. Making money with a prop firm seems simple in this scenario. Just take a few hundred pounds/dollars/whatever from your main account, and get started with something like the 5ers at the lowest priced account. All you have to do is this. When you enter a trade on your main account, just enter the same trade on your prop firm account....
Be sure to test out your strategy on a demo account as many times as you need to feel confident.

Theory is the easy part, flawless execution is the difficult part, especially if a few losses come your way back to back the temptation to revenge trade with inappropriate lot sizes will raise its ugly head.

At the end of the day if you think you are ready and you don't care much about potentially losing the risk capital/Prop Firm fee then go for it.

By all means show a TE if you wish and trade your way to victory.

Best of trading to you,

Masterrmind ........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #2,290
  • Jul 14, 2021 6:45am Jul 14, 2021 6:45am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Be sure to test out your strategy on a demo account as many times as you need to feel confident. Theory is the easy part, flawless execution is the difficult part, especially if a few losses come your way back to back the temptation to revenge trade with inappropriate lot sizes will raise its ugly head. At the end of the day if you think you are ready and you don't care much about potentially losing the risk capital/Prop Firm fee then go for it. By all means show a TE if you wish and trade your way to victory. Best of trading to you, Masterrmind...
Thanks. I don't really use the Forums, but came across this thread as part of my prop firm research. I've been reading through the thread, seen TE mentioned a few times. I assume it's some kind of record of trading performance. Can you elaborate a bit please?

Thanks.
  • #2,291
  • Jul 14, 2021 6:55am Jul 14, 2021 6:55am
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} FT spread not even one point a lot of the time
On live? I still haven't figured out their live account.
  • #2,292
  • Jul 14, 2021 7:04am Jul 14, 2021 7:04am
Quoting endgame99
{quote} {image} It has been said many times that 5ers and CTI models, where fee is = or > than available DD is not worth it. You can even see I made a spreadsheet proving that you're better off putting money in your own account and trade it. Numbers don't lie and difference after few levels is significant. Let me play devil's advocate with my own earlier opinion about such model and provide counter-argument saying that this model does have advantages. First, it is better to trade other people's money from psychology point of view. Trading your own...
Still doesn't work out better, even when you withdrawal monthly, however, the not having your own money at risk advantage is huge. Here is an example I posted quickly on Sunday. I am trading 4 accounts so do not have time for a spreadsheet. Since you already created the spreadsheet, for the good of the thread, could you add a column showing a withdrawal at each stage of equal amount (prop and personal account)

So, for $979 MFF, I get 20K account with 5% ($1,000 DD) or I put the $1,000 in personal account. For simplicity, let's assume a 500 pip risk of ruin on both, so $2 per pip.
Stage 1.....I make 1000 pips on both, so $2,000. MFF pays me $1,000(50%) and scales me to 40K with 5% ($2,000 DD). I make the same $2,000 on my account added to the $1,000 I started with totaling 3K, I pull out 1K just like MFF, leaving me with 2K. Same 500 pips risk of ruin now allows $4 per pip on both accounts.

Stage 2.... I make 1000 pips again , so $4,000. MFF pays me $2,000 (50%) and scales me to 60K. as they stagger 2X with 1.5X, same 5%, so now $3K DD. I make the same $4,000 on my account added to the $2,000 totaling 6K, I pull out 2K just like MFF, leaving me with 4K.

I can now trade 33% larger size in my personal account with the same 500 pip risk of ruin and I HAVE WITHDRAWN THE SAME AS MFF payout. MFF I can trade $6/pip, personal account now $8 per pip.

Stage 3.... I make 100 pips again, so $6000 in MFF and pays me $3,000 (50%) and scales me to 120K with 5% ($6,000 DD) but I've made $8,000 in personal added with the 4K I had is now $12K, I pull out 3K just like MFF, leaving me with 9K

I can now trade 50% larger size in personal account. I'll stop here as next stage scaling is only 1.5 again, so it gets exponentially out of control in favor of the personal account.

Don't get me wrong, I love MFF, I plan on trading 600K with them, I just cannot buy into this scaling model (with any company) where the fee is the same amount or greater than what they allow you to lose. There is no benefit. The above example is with pulling out the same money, I've already demonstrated if you can compound the personal account for 3 months without withdrawing, it is not even close, I mean 100s of thousands of dollars difference after a few more stages than shown above.
1

  • #2,293
  • Jul 14, 2021 7:16am Jul 14, 2021 7:16am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Still doesn't work out better, even when you withdrawal monthly, however, the not having your own money at risk advantage is huge. Here is an example I posted quickly on Sunday. I am trading 4 accounts so do not have time for a spreadsheet. Since you already created the spreadsheet, for the good of the thread, could you add a column showing a withdrawal at each stage of equal amount (prop and personal account) So, for $979 MFF, I get 20K account with 5% ($1,000 DD) or I put the $1,000 in personal account. For simplicity, let's assume a 500...
You gonna do the MFF challenge thing they are releasing soon where winner skips phase 2? I am thinking about doing it for the ego points
  • #2,294
  • Jul 14, 2021 7:32am Jul 14, 2021 7:32am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} You gonna do the MFF challenge thing they are releasing soon where winner skips phase 2? I am thinking about doing it for the ego points
Yes, my only concern is it throwing me off my "slow and steady" pace in an attempt to try to beat them. So I'll keep my risk the same and see what happens. If I read correctly, I believe we are against other traders as well. It was a great idea to put max sizes in there, but I still feel someone with one lucky trade will win.
  • #2,295
  • Jul 14, 2021 7:35am Jul 14, 2021 7:35am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, my only concern is it throwing me off my "slow and steady" pace in an attempt to try to beat them. So I'll keep my risk the same and see what happens. If I read correctly, I believe we are against other traders as well. It was a great idea to put max sizes in there, but I still feel someone with one lucky trade will win.

Based on my interactions in discord, I would say most of the traders who are trading in that competition will break the rules due to open size at once or no stop loss. But thats just me being a bitch.
  • #2,296
  • Jul 14, 2021 7:54am Jul 14, 2021 7:54am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Based on my interactions in discord, I would say most of the traders who are trading in that competition will break the rules due to open size at once or no stop loss. But thats just me being a bitch.
Yes, that's why I will trade it like any other eval, I need to do another anyway. Wish the 200K was an option for this, be nice to skip stage 2 on that one.
  • #2,297
  • Jul 14, 2021 8:17am Jul 14, 2021 8:17am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I only trade session time, so I don't know outside session time. Not sure why someone would trade US30 outside of session tbh.
Attached Image
  • #2,298
  • Jul 14, 2021 8:24am Jul 14, 2021 8:24am
Quoting geoffrod
{quote} {image}
seems fine to me. My min tp is $50 so.. w/e
  • #2,299
  • Edited Jul 15, 2021 12:06am Jul 14, 2021 11:20pm | Edited Jul 15, 2021 12:06am
Update on my FT challenge.

Today and tomorrow, I may not have much time to trade as I have to attend a wedding.

Until 29 th of the month, I have time to meet target.

Let me see.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Capture.PNG Size: 26 KB
Intraday only.
  • #2,300
  • Jul 14, 2021 11:32pm Jul 14, 2021 11:32pm
Quoting bluepanido
{quote} Thanks. I don't really use the Forums, but came across this thread as part of my prop firm research. I've been reading through the thread, seen TE mentioned a few times. I assume it's some kind of record of trading performance. Can you elaborate a bit please? Thanks.
TE is short for trade explorer.

A trader can connect his/her trading account to the TE using the investor password.

Once connected you can show it as part of your signature, in your profile or in a thread that you may choose to open.

Search for trade explorer here on FF and learn more.

Good trading,

Masterrmind ........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
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