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  • #2,241
  • Jul 11, 2021 9:16am Jul 11, 2021 9:16am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I love you pipmaster, but it doesn't because your math doesn't take into account full withdrawal. It only compares full compound. But I love you anyway and I still don't like the model.
Well as long as you still love me. But, can you demonstrate this with some figures as I have with the opposite view. You cannot even trade the same size with the prop firm as you can with your personal account with these models. Even after scaling, the personal account is still always larger than the DD on the new "scaled" amount. Wife is standing at my office door, off to install floors in my downstairs, be back in about 7 hours.
  • #2,242
  • Jul 11, 2021 9:17am Jul 11, 2021 9:17am
Quoting PayTheBid
{quote} Yes we are, I just realized it also, I am talking form the starting balance and you are talking from the equity, lol
OK, perfect. You had me confused lol
  • #2,243
  • Jul 11, 2021 9:19am Jul 11, 2021 9:19am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I love you pipmaster, but it doesn't because your math doesn't take into account full withdrawal. It only compares full compound. But I love you anyway and I still don't like the model.
I'm sure you viewed this a few posts back. Show me where the errors are. Not being an asshole, I'd really like to understand.

I've done some math for everyone to demonstrate the difference between eval and live on the MFF. Going to compare the 200K eval vs the 20K live conventional as they are approx the same cost. 949 vs 970.
1st "stage" requires 8% on eval, which pays you 2% $320 same 8% on 20K live pays you $800
2nd "stage" requires 5% pays you 4% $400 same 5% on 20K live pays you $500
you are now trading a 200K account on eval model and you are now scaled to 40K on live

Going to assume 5% per month from here on just for simplicity

1st month funded 200K @ 5% @ 75% split $7500 on eval 40K @5% @ 50% split $1000 on live
112% refund of 949 $1062 on eval
2nd month @ 80% split $8000 on eval 40k @ 5% @ 50% split $1000 on live
you are now scaled to 60K on live (as they alternate 2x and 1.5X)
3rd month @85% split $8500 on eval 60K @ 5% $1500 on live

Total $25782on eval vs$4800 on live

Assuming the 5% moving forward, in month11, the live account will begin generating $9K per month, but you will have earned $46,982 more in the eval model at that point. This also does not take into account the 30% scaling which would have occurred twice on the eval, putting you at 320 K generating a split of $13,600 on the eval now.

You can plug these numbers for any "challenge" company vs. any "scaling" company. It really is just simple math.
1

  • #2,244
  • Jul 11, 2021 9:20am Jul 11, 2021 9:20am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Well as long as you still love me. But, can you demonstrate this with some figures as I have with the opposite view. You cannot even trade the same size with the prop firm as you can with your personal account with these models. Even after scaling, the personal account is still always larger than the DD on the new "scaled" amount. Wife is standing at my office door, off to install floors in my downstairs, be back in about 7 hours.

If you have a 1k account, and you make 10%, You get paid $50 + your account becomes 2k. If you traded your $100, and make $100 and withdrew $50, you wouldn't scale anywhere near at the same rate as the accelerated program. Your initial investment in the program would have to be compounded if you didn't buy the program in order to keep up and if you lose it, you really lose it.

If you use an accelerated or whoevers direct funding so long as it has regular withdrawals/scaling, you withdraw your profits out so you get paid and remove your risk + you scale. I think at the 3rd scale level you are so far ahead that its not comparable in terms of risk and reward. Your risk remains 100% always if you are just compound your initial cost. Once you scale and have been paid your risk goes almost to 0

Again, still dont like the idea of handing over live funds to people you dont know but understand why it can be advantageous. 200k eval for me is always gonna win, less cost and if you are capable significantly higher short term reward.
  • #2,245
  • Jul 11, 2021 9:23am Jul 11, 2021 9:23am
also want to clarify, that I am not defending the program itself. I prefer eval as i have stated, short term Eval will always win.
  • #2,246
  • Jul 11, 2021 10:43am Jul 11, 2021 10:43am
Quoting OutThere
The relationship between a trader and a so called prop firm is a Symbiotic relationship. Do you agree? A trader who is (or thinks is) successful, doesn't really need a prop firm other than to grow exponentially. At the same time, it is rare that a trader is allowed to be and do as he/she is capable of being successful on their own due to many constrictive limitations put upon them. So, in most likelihood, a trader has to change themselves in order to fit within the confines of a prop trader. In addition to that, the prop firms have handedly stacked...

I agree with you.
These companies do not seek more than their own benefit.
If they were really looking for a profitable trader, they would be in the structure of an investment fund and would hire qualified traders with validated track records.
but since they are not interested in that, they look for new merchants who pay for their membership.
  • #2,247
  • Jul 11, 2021 2:30pm Jul 11, 2021 2:30pm
Just got my scaled up account from MFF, very nice and fast, very happy!
Party time
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it
  • #2,248
  • Jul 11, 2021 3:12pm Jul 11, 2021 3:12pm
Quoting PayTheBid
Just got my scaled up account from MFF, very nice and fast, very happy! Party time
Congratulations Sir!!!
  • #2,249
  • Jul 11, 2021 3:15pm Jul 11, 2021 3:15pm
Quoting raik07
{quote} I agree with you. These companies do not seek more than their own benefit. If they were really looking for a profitable trader, they would be in the structure of an investment fund and would hire qualified traders with validated track records. but since they are not interested in that, they look for new merchants who pay for their membership.
thats quite the first post there.

I have worked with futures prop firms and whilst profit is the main goal for everyone, seat fees are a normal thing. Its basically a "if you are so good, we will fund you, if you're not but think you are pay the fee and try". To put all the burden purely on the companies i think is very unfair especially since so many people in retail FX specifically think they have what it takes when sadly they do not.
  • #2,250
  • Jul 11, 2021 3:30pm Jul 11, 2021 3:30pm
Quoting Samalin
{quote} Congratulations Sir!!!
Thank you Samalin!
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it
  • #2,251
  • Jul 11, 2021 4:47pm Jul 11, 2021 4:47pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} thats quite the first post there. I have worked with futures prop firms and whilst profit is the main goal for everyone, seat fees are a normal thing. Its basically a "if you are so good, we will fund you, if you're not but think you are pay the fee and try". To put all the burden purely on the companies i think is very unfair especially since so many people in retail FX specifically think they have what it takes when sadly they do not.

I would say it is this way: if you are very good we will finance you and if you are not, we will give you an opportunity to pay our fees until you get tired.

The interesting thing about it is that the applicants who pay for funded accounts of 50,000 or 80,000 believe that they are giving them 50,000 or 80,000 real dollars and that is something that saddens me about some platforms.

They will still have something positive but I see a lot of negative things on those platforms.
  • #2,252
  • Jul 11, 2021 5:14pm Jul 11, 2021 5:14pm
Quoting raik07
{quote} I would say it is this way: if you are very good we will finance you and if you are not, we will give you an opportunity to pay our fees until you get tired. The interesting thing about it is that the applicants who pay for funded accounts of 50,000 or 80,000 believe that they are giving them 50,000 or 80,000 real dollars and that is something that saddens me about some platforms. They will still have something positive but I see a lot of negative things on those platforms.

Across all the companies I have used since February, I have pulled out just over 100k. After passing, I got my fees back except on 1 of the accounts where I messed up. So my risk was like 700 dollars and I have 100k to show for it.

Its not the companies job to regulate the individual as to what their capabilities are or aren't. If someone is unsure or doesnt know they can be successful they should just not do it.
  • #2,253
  • Edited 5:25pm Jul 11, 2021 5:14pm | Edited 5:25pm
Quoting raik07
{quote} I would say it is this way: if you are very good we will finance you and if you are not, we will give you an opportunity to pay our fees until you get tired. The interesting thing about it is that the applicants who pay for funded accounts of 50,000 or 80,000 believe that they are giving them 50,000 or 80,000 real dollars and that is something that saddens me about some platforms. They will still have something positive but I see a lot of negative things on those platforms.
Well my friend, non of it is, its all.....
(and this is not only in the movie, lol)

As long as the profits gets deposited in the account in the end, you do not care what they are....

Inserted Video
Those who don't believe in magic will never find it
  • #2,254
  • Jul 11, 2021 6:16pm Jul 11, 2021 6:16pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Across all the companies I have used since February, I have pulled out just over 100k. After passing, I got my fees back except on 1 of the accounts where I messed up. So my risk was like 700 dollars and I have 100k to show for it. Its not the companies job to regulate the individual as to what their capabilities are or aren't. If someone is unsure or doesn't know they can be successful they should just not do it.
I've been making this comparison for over a year. The stats show 90-95% of traders lose. So, by that fact alone, if all prop firms are bad, all brokers are bad as well. After all, they are letting folks participate where there is a 5-10% chance of success. The risk:reward of "the right" prop firms far outweighs your own account IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. If you don't, you will lose anyway. So great point, you need to regulate yourself as to what you are capable of, it is not the broker nor the prop firm's job to do so.
  • #2,255
  • Jul 11, 2021 6:37pm Jul 11, 2021 6:37pm
cool!
what you say is true, these companies are not to blame for traders not knowing what they are doing.

But the numbers are clear, between 85 to 90% of retail traders lose money in the markets so most will pay to lose their accounts while a few manage to make it profitable. they are good numbers for these companies.

I'm thinking of opening one being honest.
  • #2,256
  • Jul 11, 2021 7:06pm Jul 11, 2021 7:06pm
Quoting raik07
cool! what you say is true, these companies are not to blame for traders not knowing what they are doing. But the numbers are clear, between 85 to 90% of retail traders lose money in the markets so most will pay to lose their accounts while a few manage to make it profitable. they are good numbers for these companies. I'm thinking of opening one being honest.

I already explored opening one. I can trade so I make more just using them. Also, I can imagine infrastructure costs will be big now. If you look a web traffic a lot of the smaller name firms have very little traffic if any at all. To me the opportunity to open one and be successful with it is kind of gone unless you have an initial means of solid converting traffic early.

I would have relied on FF to supply me traders by bragging "Hey i opened a firm" but then pipmaster would bankrupt me.
  • #2,257
  • Jul 11, 2021 8:40pm Jul 11, 2021 8:40pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} If you have a 1k account, and you make 10%, You get paid $50 + your account becomes 2k. If you traded your $100, and make $100 and withdrew $50, you wouldn't scale anywhere near at the same rate as the accelerated program. Your initial investment in the program would have to be compounded if you didn't buy the program in order to keep up and if you lose it, you really lose it. If you use an accelerated or whoevers direct funding so long as it has regular withdrawals/scaling, you withdraw your profits out so you get paid and remove your risk...
So, for $979 MFF, I get 20K account with 5% ($1,000 DD) or I put the $1,000 in personal account. For simplicity, let's assume a 500 pip risk of ruin on both, so $2 per pip.
Stage 1.....I make 1000 pips on both, so $2,000. MFF pays me $1,000(50%) and scales me to 40K with 5% ($2,000 DD). I make the same $2,000 on my account added to the $1,000 I started with totaling 3K, I pull out 1K just like MFF, leaving me with 2K. Same 500 pips risk of ruin now allows $4 per pip on both accounts.

Stage 2.... I make 1000 pips again , so $4,000. MFF pays me $2,000 (50%) and scales me to 60K. as they stagger 2X with 1.5X, same 5%, so now $3K DD. I make the same $4,000 on my account added to the $2,000 totaling 6K, I pull out 2K just like MFF, leaving me with 4K.

I can now trade 33% larger size in my personal account with the same 500 pip risk of ruin and I HAVE WITHDRAWN THE SAME AS MFF payout. MFF I can trade $6/pip, personal account now $8 per pip.

Stage 3.... I make 100 pips again, so $6000 in MFF and pays me $3,000 (50%) and scales me to 120K with 5% ($6,000 DD) but I've made $8,000 in personal added with the 4K I had is now $12K, I pull out 3K just like MFF, leaving me with 9K

I can now trade 50% larger size in personal account. I'll stop here as next stage scaling is only 1.5 again, so it gets exponentially out of control in favor of the personal account.

Don't get me wrong, I love MFF, I plan on trading 600K with them, I just cannot buy into this scaling model (with any company) where the fee is the same amount or greater than what they allow you to lose. There is no benefit. The above example is with pulling out the same money, I've already demonstrated if you can compound the personal account for 3 months without withdrawing, it is not even close, I mean 100s of thousands of dollars difference after a few more stages than shown above.
  • #2,258
  • Jul 11, 2021 8:44pm Jul 11, 2021 8:44pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} So, for $979 MFF, I get 20K account with 5% ($1,000 DD) or I put the $1,000 in personal account. For simplicity, let's assume a 500 pip risk of ruin on both, so $2 per pip. Stage 1.....I make 1000 pips on both, so $2,000. MFF pays me $1,000(50%) and scales me to 40K with 5% ($2,000 DD). I make the same $2,000 on my account added to the $1,000 I started with totaling 3K, I pull out 1K just like MFF, leaving me with 2K. Same 500 pips risk of ruin now allows $4 per pip on both accounts. Stage 2.... I make 1000 pips again , so $4,000. MFF pays...
Perfect script for a trading porn movie.
  • #2,259
  • Jul 11, 2021 8:52pm Jul 11, 2021 8:52pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Perfect script for a trading porn movie.
Yes, that's why I stopped there, figured most would "finish" by stage 2.
  • #2,260
  • Jul 11, 2021 8:56pm Jul 11, 2021 8:56pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} So, for $979 MFF, I get 20K account with 5% ($1,000 DD) or I put the $1,000 in personal account. For simplicity, let's assume a 500 pip risk of ruin on both, so $2 per pip. Stage 1.....I make 1000 pips on both, so $2,000. MFF pays me $1,000(50%) and scales me to 40K with 5% ($2,000 DD). I make the same $2,000 on my account added to the $1,000 I started with totaling 3K, I pull out 1K just like MFF, leaving me with 2K. Same 500 pips risk of ruin now allows $4 per pip on both accounts. Stage 2.... I make 1000 pips again , so $4,000. MFF pays...

Forgot to add, for $30 LESS with the same company, you get a 200K account with 12% ($24,000 DD)!!!!!!!
So $979 for $1,000 in DD or $949 for $24K in DD. The $1,000 DD account has a 50% split and the $24K DD account has 75%/80%/85% 3rd month +
When you see it in black and white like that, it just makes no sense to me why everyone isn't doing eval. I mean, seriously, for faster payout, if you need the money that quickly, should you really even be trading?
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