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  • #841
  • May 5, 2021 1:04pm May 5, 2021 1:04pm
Quoting Dao-trades
Not sure if anyone has seen this yet, but it looks like Funding Talent has removed their 10 day minimum trading period for their challenges. Probably going to lead to a surge of people taking, rushing (and failing) them. {image}
they dont allow bots for a reason that they dont want people to succeed
Allergic to bullshitters, never argue with fools
  • #842
  • May 5, 2021 1:47pm May 5, 2021 1:47pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} lol, let me pay $3,000 for $2,000 in DD.....where do I sign?
actually, it looks more like you can lose up to $2000+$2000 the most....is up to $4000 ......a little too good for $3000 dont you think?

to put into context:
5%er was open to potentially make a deal, 80k aggressive (30:1 leverage) 4% max dd, 50% cut....for $3200

not sure what the first one offer as profit, but if their 80% cut, along with the 100:1 leverage, that $50k offer i see as superior.

if the 80% cut is the deal, then one would need to make +7.5% to get to BE, ie. to recover the $3000 paid for the opportunity.

if the 5%er offer, one would need +8% gain to get to BE, ie. to recover the $3200 paid for the opportunity.

basically the Traders Prop offers about 2x more buying power, a literal 2nd chance if stay just bellow -4% on a single day, a quicker recoup of the fees paid, and as a bonus a higher payout going forward after the fees recovered.
all that, for -$200 less.

conclusion: the deal isnt really that bad as you would make it out first place. remember, neither above option comes with a time pressure like a challenge/verification model, a definite plus value for the extra cost.

anyways, just some food for thoughts.
actually i wouldnt mind if things would shift a little more to this direction, (better, if with a solid scaling up plan.)
having some skin in the game will filter out many of those 'yolo' gamblers, looking for a hit and run, vs trading that last.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #843
  • May 5, 2021 2:17pm May 5, 2021 2:17pm
Any firm offering 1:100 regardless of other conditions is already levels above 5ers in my opinion.

The tight DD limit has always been my secondary issue with them. One could trade micro/mini lots and slowly crawl up with some profits... But even when you have built up some profits to increase your DD limit, you still can't take advantage of that buffer and decide to risk more money and take bigger positions ... Thanks to the 1:6 leverage. Annoying.
  • #844
  • May 5, 2021 2:32pm May 5, 2021 2:32pm
Quoting Koop
Any firm offering 1:100 regardless of other conditions is already levels above 5ers in my opinion. The tight DD limit has always been my secondary issue with them. One could trade micro/mini lots and slowly crawl up with some profits... But even when you have built up some profits to increase your DD limit, you still can't take advantage of that buffer and decide to risk more money and take bigger positions ... Thanks to the 1:6 leverage. Annoying.
Why does a firm offer less than retail brokerage leverage?

Answer: Because they aren't putting up the margin, you are just getting a display of a high account size.
  • #845
  • May 5, 2021 4:27pm May 5, 2021 4:27pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} actually, it looks more like you can lose up to $2000+$2000 the most....is up to $4000 ......a little too good for $3000 dont you think? to put into context: 5%er was open to potentially make a deal, 80k aggressive (30:1 leverage) 4% max dd, 50% cut....for $3200 not sure what the first one offer as profit, but if their 80% cut, along with the 100:1 leverage, that $50k offer i see as superior. if the 80% cut is the deal, then one would need to make +7.5% to get to BE, ie. to recover the $3000 paid for the opportunity. if the 5%er offer, one...
When the fee is greater than the DD, put the "fee" in a personal account, you will exceed the "scaling" plan by stage 3. Despite the time pressure of challenge/ verification model, it's a way better deal. Example 5%ers....$875 for $800 in DD, FTMO....$640 for 10K in DD. The "scaling" models with the 4% DD offer absolutely no value to the trader. They are simply allowing you to fund your own account and then taking a piece of your profit for that "privilege".
  • #846
  • May 5, 2021 4:53pm May 5, 2021 4:53pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} When the fee is greater than the DD, put the "fee" in a personal account, you will exceed the "scaling" plan by stage 3. Despite the time pressure of challenge/ verification model, it's a way better deal. Example 5%ers....$875 for $800 in DD, FTMO....$640 for 10K in DD. The "scaling" models with the 4% DD offer absolutely no value to the trader. They are simply allowing you to fund your own account and then taking a piece of your profit for that "privilege".

These are the required leverages for each level to replicate 5ers cheapest evaluation 1:144/ 1:230/ 1:95/ 1:74/ 1:66/ 1:63/ 1:61/ 1:51. Without legal access to the required leverage funding providers are the next best option.
The other consideration…..brokers offering retailers 1:230, 144 etc are notoriously dodgy.
Who is your broker?
  • #847
  • May 5, 2021 5:10pm May 5, 2021 5:10pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} When the fee is greater than the DD, put the "fee" in a personal account, you will exceed the "scaling" plan by stage 3. Despite the time pressure of challenge/ verification model, it's a way better deal. Example 5%ers....$875 for $800 in DD, FTMO....$640 for 10K in DD. The "scaling" models with the 4% DD offer absolutely no value to the trader. They are simply allowing you to fund your own account and then taking a piece of your profit for that "privilege".

You are talking about something else.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #848
  • May 5, 2021 6:00pm May 5, 2021 6:00pm
Quoting Le.Metier
{quote} These are the required leverages for each level to replicate 5ers cheapest evaluation 1:144/ 1:230/ 1:95/ 1:74/ 1:66/ 1:63/ 1:61/ 1:51. Without legal access to the required leverage funding providers are the next best option. The other consideration…..brokers offering retailers 1:230, 144 etc are notoriously dodgy. Who is your broker?
The fact still remains you are paying $875/$450, whatever and you can ONLY LOSE less than that and then they take 50% for giving you the "privilege" of funding your own account. We can debate this forever. If I have $800 to lose, whether that be my max DD in a prop or 100% of my own personal account, the position sizes will be the same. In other words, if they are only allowing you to lose $800, what is your risk per trade going to be? It's not a % of the "pretend" balance, it has to be a % of what you can lose.
  • #849
  • May 5, 2021 6:02pm May 5, 2021 6:02pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} When the fee is greater than the DD, put the "fee" in a personal account, you will exceed the "scaling" plan by stage 3. Despite the time pressure of challenge/ verification model, it's a way better deal. Example 5%ers....$875 for $800 in DD, FTMO....$640 for 10K in DD. The "scaling" models with the 4% DD offer absolutely no value to the trader. They are simply allowing you to fund your own account and then taking a piece of your profit for that "privilege".

The one he is talking about is some shoddy with a broken down boat in their back yard UAE company offering more DD than the deposit. If you want to bankrupt them simply go long short with them, you open an account with 3k, you buy their 3k program, you all in on both and let it run. Something like dow on new york open. They lose 1k each time your upside potential is like 20k. You could probably just go long short with the 3k anyway.. You will liekly make more money than with a firm like that.

People who believe that a prop firm would be so generous to just hand over 1k to you just because you fronted 3k probably deserve to lose the 3k.
  • #850
  • May 5, 2021 6:05pm May 5, 2021 6:05pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} You are talking about something else.
No, if I pay $875 for $800 in allowed DD, my position sizes will actually be slightly larger in my personal account if I simply put the $875 to work there. The %5ers are requiring you to make $1400 with $800. If I do that in my personal account I have $2200, they scale me to $3200. Now I need to make $8000 (10% of 80K) to scale again. $8k off of $3200 is 250%. Do that with my $2200, I have $5500. Now they scale me to 160K, which is $6400 in DD and I need to make 16K off of $6400, this si the stage the personal account passes the scaling model. As an added bonus, I keep 100%, not 50%.
  • #851
  • May 5, 2021 6:35pm May 5, 2021 6:35pm
Quoting pipmaster77
The fact still remains......

It’s a mathematical fact only. If you don’t have real world access to 1:144/ 1:230/ 1:95/ 1:74/ 1:66/ 1:63/ 1:61/ 1:51 with a reputable broker, it’s FANTASY!
  • #852
  • May 5, 2021 7:02pm May 5, 2021 7:02pm
Quoting Le.Metier
{quote} It’s a mathematical fact only. If you don’t have real world access to 1:144/ 1:230/ 1:95/ 1:74/ 1:66/ 1:63/ 1:61/ 1:51 with a reputable broker, it’s FANTASY!
OK, let's say you have $800 to lose with 5%ers, I have $800 in a personal account. We will say risk of ruin 20 trades, so 5 % per, or $40. I will be slightly higher, but we can ignore that fact. If using a stop loss of 20 pips, you are trading $2/pip or 2 minis, which I would need 25:1 leverage on. You can do that with regulated brokers. However, I am in the US, so I would never use what is available here, Oanda, Forex.com, IG, etc. I use offshore brokers so leverage is not an issue. However, as far as regulation and risk, I only keep 10% of my overall trading capital at the broker as that is all that is needed because of the leverage offered. The other 90% sits in an FDIC insured bank account. If you use a high leverage broker, you only need to keep 10% of your actual capital with them. My risk is based on my total trading capital, not what sits at the broker. This is another ADVANTAGE OF NOT USING A REGULATED BROKER. I am also funded 200K at FTMO.
  • #853
  • May 5, 2021 7:35pm May 5, 2021 7:35pm
Quoting Le.Metier
{quote} You need more than that. If $800 = 4% (max DD 5er), means account is $20,000 @1:6 = $120,000 To match 5er’s $120K with just $800 in a private account requires 1:150 not 1:25 These are the leverages required to match 5ers cheapest account. 1:144/ 1:230/ 1:95/ 1:74/ 1:66/ 1:63/ 1:61/ 1:51 The max leverage I have access to is 1:30. Which in the future will be the same for almost every retailer globally.

Leverage is relevant only to buying power, not account size. You use less of your margin to open positions if you have higher leverage, you use more of your margin if your leverage is less. It is not relevant to what the deposit is because you still need margin.

So if you open a 100k lot with 1:100 you need 1k to open that position.

If you have 800$ of drawdown at 5ers the account size is irrelevant if your leverage is tiny because it costs you more to open a position. If 5ers offered 1:100 leverage on that account the buying power would be sigificantly more and they would have to provide more margin.

This is the trick of the direct funding models.

You can give someone 100k with a $800 drawdown and 1:30 leverage or whatever. But at liquidity whether it be using a simple, shit hole, like lmax then you can get 1:100 on your margin account. So you only have to put up 30k to cover that 100k account.

So not only is the 5ers risk 0 on the trading capital, but they also dont have to front the capital to cover the entire account just enough to cover the low leverage trades with their high leverage margin account. If they even execute the trades at all. At this point I feel like direct funding is probably the least risky way of chewing free money of all these prop firms because most traders suck and lose their money in the first month. Actually, I could offer a 5k entry with 10k drawdown direct funding and b book everyone and I will likely come out on top and I wouldnt have to hold any margin just spend the dollars.
  • #854
  • Edited 9:33pm May 5, 2021 8:48pm | Edited 9:33pm
Quoting pipmaster77
I would need 25:1 leverage on.


Quoting Takisd
{quote} Leverage is relevant only to buying power,......


using pipmasters $20k Vs $0.8k example,

20k USD @1:6 risking $90 (0.45%) and 10pip SL = $18k margin
Vs 0.8k USD @1:30, also risking $90 and 10pip SL = $3.6k margin…..$2.4k short

Placing $0.8k @1:30 in a private account isn’t equivalent to 20k USD @1:6
  • #855
  • May 5, 2021 9:49pm May 5, 2021 9:49pm
Quoting Le.Metier
{quote} {quote} using pipmasters $20k Vs $0.8k example, 20k USD @1:6 risking $90 (0.45%) and 10pip SL = $18k margin Vs 0.8k USD @1:30, also risking $90 and 10pip SL = $3.6k margin…..$2.4k short Placing $0.8k @1:30 in a private account isn’t equivalent to 20k USD @1:6
You're correct, $20K at 1:6 gives you 120K, where I would need 150:1. It's irrelevant though as in either scenario, you're trading $12/pip with a risk of ruin of $800, which would be 66.6 pips. I would hope neither user is using that full buying power or account is potentially toast in a matter of minutes. So do the math on what you are actually going to risk per trade and you do not need 150:1. However, even if I did, I have access to it, while still keeping 90% of my capital in my bank account. To me, regulation is useless, at least here in the States, the brokers here are charging 7 pip spread on crosses like GBPAUD and GBPCAD and I get them for 0.9-1.5. In addition, in the US, your money with a forex broker is not protected at all anyway. So here is a real world example....I want to trade 2 standards of GBPUSD with a 30 pip stop, it's $600 risk. I put $600 with my offshore broker to cover the potential loss where in the US I'm giving the broker 10K because gbp pairs are 20:1, that's not even calculating the exchange rate. So I have to put up 10K to cover my $600 trade. Point being, if both brokers go belly up, I've lost $600, the trader with the regulated broker lost 10K. How did regulation help?
  • #856
  • May 5, 2021 10:23pm May 5, 2021 10:23pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} You're correct, $20K at 1:6 gives you 120K, where I would need 150:1. It's irrelevant though as in either scenario, you're trading $12/pip with a risk of ruin of $800, which would be 66.6 pips. I would hope neither user is using that full buying power or account is potentially toast in a matter of minutes. So do the math on what you are actually going to risk per trade and you do not need 150:1. However, even if I did, I have access to it, while still keeping 90% of my capital in my bank account. To me, regulation is useless, at least here...
Yes but the point of your argument against 5er is you are better off placing $875 in a private account as opposed to purchasing a $20,000 5er evaluation for $875. If the max leverage you can access on your private account is 1:30 the maths does not favour the private account. It favours the 5er account.

Using EURUSD as an example @20 pip SL.
With an $875 account @1:30 your max lot size is 0.2 and margin $800.
So even if doubled pa, my account would take years to compound up to the earning power offered at 5er.

Regarding offshore brokers:
Higher leverage and keeping a small percentage of trading capital with a reputable offshore broker is the way to go. However I have no access.
  • #857
  • May 5, 2021 11:20pm May 5, 2021 11:20pm
The defenders of the 5ers always end up settling in for the scheme because it helps the US traders. That's the only argument that works but let's not forget, US has only 5% of the world population and they are marketing their offers to a 100% of the world. I'm sure the US benefits are more of a coincidence than a design. Having said that, it's all about buyer beware and we all know that they are not always aware and that is done by design.
  • #858
  • May 6, 2021 3:02am May 6, 2021 3:02am
Quoting Le.Metier
{quote} It’s a mathematical fact only. If you don’t have real world access to 1:144/ 1:230/ 1:95/ 1:74/ 1:66/ 1:63/ 1:61/ 1:51 with a reputable broker, it’s FANTASY!
How is that a fantasy? Australian Brokers are properly regulated and very reputable. All of which make provisions for up to 1:400 worth of leverage for clients who choose to migrate accounts.

There's actually no comparison in my opinion. The 5ers defeat the purpose of seeking external Funding by cutting down the actual buying power on their "large" funded account balance.

Quoting Le.Metier
{quote} Yes but the point of your argument against 5er is you are better off placing $875 in a private account as opposed to purchasing a $20,000 5er evaluation for $875. If the max leverage you can access on your private account is 1:30 the maths does not favour the private account. It favours the 5er account. Using EURUSD as an example @20 pip SL. With an $875 account @1:30 your max lot size is 0.2 and margin $800. So even if doubled pa, my account would take years to compound up to the earning power offered at 5er. Regarding offshore brokers:...
Don't you reside in Australia?
Apparently the offer made to me by pepperstone and others was probably only available to international clients. That sucks.
  • #859
  • May 6, 2021 3:28am May 6, 2021 3:28am
Quoting Koop
{quote} How is that a fantasy? Australian Brokers are properly regulated and very reputable. All of which make provisions for up to 1:400 worth of leverage for clients who choose to migrate accounts. There's actually no comparison in my opinion. The 5ers defeat the purpose of seeking external Funding by cutting down the actual buying power on their "large" funded account balance. {quote} Don't you reside in Australia? Apparently the offer made to me by pepperstone and others was probably only available to international clients. That sucks....
I have a retail account, 1:30 is the max. W'sale accounts can get much higher; I am not eligible.
  • #860
  • May 6, 2021 4:04am May 6, 2021 4:04am
Quoting Koop
{quote} How is that a fantasy? Australian Brokers are properly regulated and very reputable. All of which make provisions for up to 1:400 worth of leverage for clients who choose to migrate accounts. There's actually no comparison in my opinion. The 5ers defeat the purpose of seeking external Funding by cutting down the actual buying power on their "large" funded account balance. {quote} Don't you reside in Australia? Apparently the offer made to me by pepperstone and others was probably only available to international...
example of selective understanding.
the properly regulated Australian broker a good part stop to be properly regulated and in a sense even Australian soon they use St.Vincent, Seychelles or Vanuatu "regulation" to open a subsidy in these countries. (wasnt Vanuatu that registration a forex broker was cheaper than buying an MT4 server license?)
they offer literally zero protection, not that the actual ASIC regulated brokerages would offer real fund protection like FSCS along FCA regulation, or even what Cysec offer.
your run of the mill Aussie broker under ASIC offers generally nothing, really.
ok, up for debate, maybe they save Austrialian citizens from themselves not allowing them to trade large leverage by joining their own homegrown brokerages's "regulated" subsidies overseas.
hope this helps with proper context.
there is always, always another trade!!
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