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  • #5,801
  • Dec 30, 2019 2:05pm Dec 30, 2019 2:05pm
I am asking this because I do not know what to do about swaps. I trade via MT4 up to 10 small positions on each of the 20 pairs and at times seat in the pairs for 3, 4, 8 days. To me, new swaps, as they are now, are a killer of the profits.

Knowing that US citizen is screwed with Forex brokers in USA, can we get a consensus on what to do about Oanda swaps?
  • #5,802
  • Dec 30, 2019 3:01pm Dec 30, 2019 3:01pm
Quoting driven18
I am asking this because I do not know what to do about swaps. I trade via MT4 up to 10 small positions on each of the 20 pairs and at times seat in the pairs for 3, 4, 8 days. To me, new swaps, as they are now, are a killer of the profits. Knowing that US citizen is screwed with Forex brokers in USA, can we get a consensus on what to do about Oanda swaps?
I'm trying to hedge the really huge negative numbers by collecting the opposite swap in a subaccount. It's not great since you still have the pay the "spread on the swap" which is huge, but I'm not going to get pushed into closing positions. But this doesn't work! The "preliminary swap numbers" they had in there last night are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to what is in there right now.

Looks like the swaps are going to be very low today. What a racket.

Hutch is right. Just make sure all positions are closed out before any major holidays.
  • #5,803
  • Dec 30, 2019 7:54pm Dec 30, 2019 7:54pm
Quoting Saskabacha
{quote} I'm trying to hedge the really huge negative numbers by collecting the opposite swap in a subaccount. It's not great since you still have the pay the "spread on the swap" which is huge, but I'm not going to get pushed into closing positions. But this doesn't work! The "preliminary swap numbers" they had in there last night are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to what is in there right now. Looks like the swaps are going to be very low today. What a racket. Hutch is right. Just make sure all positions are closed out before any major holidays.
You are totally right. What a racket! I saw your post early in the morn. I had very little time before I had to leave. So I just quickly looked at the swap rates and felt sick to my stomach. I go to work.I finally get home and decide whats the best plan? First thing grab a big bottle of vodka and uncap it. Next thing get ready vodka bottle in one hand and scroll down in my software to see the amount I had been charged. That way I could just start sucking on the bottle straight. The number was like you said surprisingly small. Put the bottle down and made a nice mixed drink instead. I do not understand. One thing to note is yes we are pleasantly surprised but the rates are still much higher then a month ago but not as devastating as the last few days or weeks.

HUTCH if you see this. I would like to ask a question. Has Oanda always been like this during Holiday Season. I was under the impression that it was not like this before even during the Holidays because they charged second by second? Can you please comment on that?
  • #5,804
  • Dec 30, 2019 9:10pm Dec 30, 2019 9:10pm
Quoting Saskabacha
{quote} I'm trying to hedge the really huge negative numbers by collecting the opposite swap in a subaccount. It's not great since you still have the pay the "spread on the swap" which is huge, but I'm not going to get pushed into closing positions. But this doesn't work! The "preliminary swap numbers" they had in there last night are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to what is in there right now. Looks like the swaps are going to be very low today. What a racket. Hutch is right. Just make sure all positions are closed out before any major holidays.
Hey Sasky! Do you know how often the swaps are updated throughout the day? Unfortunately I am not at home during the day or I would try to monitor it. Also I know the interest goes though at 5pm eastern time so lets say at 4:45 would the swap rates be accurate then or are there a lot of games and changes made in the last few minutes.

Also excuse me for my lack of knowledge on this matter but can you please comment on FIFO? I have heard a lot of people complaining about this but I dont understand the mechanics behind it? I take it FIFO stands for first in first out. I will try an example. Lets say that a trader buys 100,000 units of a currency and then adds another 20,000 so now they have a total of 120,000. Now lets say they sell 20,000. The system will think they have like 80,000 and 20,000 still but who cares? Or will the system still be using up the total margin on 120,000 because you still have a portion of the first trade? Is that the issue? And the system wont free up your 100,000 worth of margin until that whole 100,000 is sold?
  • #5,805
  • Dec 30, 2019 10:03pm Dec 30, 2019 10:03pm
I haven't been following swaps too carefully since they were never an issue until after this policy change. Based on my limited experience / tracking this is what I see. Right around now Oanda puts up a new day on their website (this case, for tomorrow December 31). You can go there and see that. The numbers for this new day are exactly the same as the numbers for today i.e. they just copy the template. Later, at some point they change the numbers in the template and put out "preliminary swap numbers" for tomorrow. Yesterday I know they had preliminary numbers in there at around 3am my time (west coast us). I copied them down and went to bed thinking that there would just be a few tweaks. Then I checked about an hour before the swaps were paid the the numbers were totally different. I mean totally, completely different. I then used those new numbers to make some adjustments to reduce the swap I paid. After the swap was paid I checked numbers for the day again. The numbers were similar to an hour before the swap was paid but a few were still different, but not by a huge amount. So I think that they are continually making changes up and until swap is actually paid. They might even have a live feed where the numbers are automatically updating based on some criteria. But I think you would be kind of safe making decisioins on the swap numbers that exist 30m to 1h prior to the swap being paid. But no guarantees ... I have only been tracking these numbers for a very short time.

Regarding FIFO, I don't think it's is as much of a margin issue as it is an issue of screwing up the algos. If you buy .01 EURUSD and then buy another .01 EURUSD, you need to close the first one you bought before the second or you get a FIFO error. With Oanda, if you buy .01 EURUSD and then buy .02 EURUSD you will not get a FIFO error selling the .02 first since the lot size is different (that's nice of them, actually). But FIFO forces you into a martingale type of situation if you take multiple positions since you need to be continually increasing lot size presuming you want to scale out of the position by selling the last one first. When I tested IG in demo I got a FIFO error even in the case of different lot sizes, selling the .02 EURUSD before the .01 EURUSD gave me a FIFO error. Oanda just implemented more complex rules around FIFO and take profit and stop loss that I honestly don't even quite understand. You have the CFTC / NFA to thank for this one. All brokers that operate in the US will need to abidy by FIFO although they may implement it differently.

What do I think of FIFO? I'm mad as hell! Beyond mad!!! There is not one legitimate explanation for why this rule exists. But it does seem to further stack the deck in favor of the banks who are exemped by all of these regulations that handcuff the retail traders. But what can you do? Just try to figure out other ways to outsmart them or stop trading and do something else.
  • #5,806
  • Dec 30, 2019 11:11pm Dec 30, 2019 11:11pm
Quoting Saskabacha
I haven't been following swaps too carefully since they were never an issue until after this policy change. Based on my limited experience / tracking this is what I see. Right around now Oanda puts up a new day on their website (this case, for tomorrow December 31). You can go there and see that. The numbers for this new day are exactly the same as the numbers for today i.e. they just copy the template. Later, at some point they change the numbers in the template and put out "preliminary swap numbers" for tomorrow. Yesterday I know they had preliminary...
Hey bud sorry to be a pain but I am still not getting it. Maybe it would be easier if I think of it in manual trading. So if i buy USD/EUR first a 100units then 300 units and then 600 units. Are you saying that in order to get out I have to actually sell 100 units by itself. I could not just hit out of 1000 all at once? I know I am not getting exactly what you are saying but I can tell the rule is really dumb. The banks do not have to follow it? Lol what a joke. The rigged deck.

Also thanks for all that info on the swaps. I guess in the morning everything is going to look not so bad since thats how it finished today. I will see when I get home from work it will be well after they spin the roulette wheel!
  • #5,807
  • Dec 31, 2019 12:58am Dec 31, 2019 12:58am
Quoting MagnumPI
{quote} Hey bud sorry to be a pain but I am still not getting it. Maybe it would be easier if I think of it in manual trading. So if i buy USD/EUR first a 100units then 300 units and then 600 units. Are you saying that in order to get out I have to actually sell 100 units by itself. I could not just hit out of 1000 all at once? I know I am not getting exactly what you are saying but I can tell the rule is really dumb. The banks do not have to follow it? Lol what a joke. The rigged deck. Also thanks for all that info on the swaps. I guess in the...
I think I know what the confusion is. Are you using a system where if you buy 100 EURUSD and later 300 EURUSD there is only one line that shows 400 EURUSD? If you're using such a system (position netting) then FIFO doesn't even make sense. It's not an issue.

In Metatrader 4, if you buy 100 EURUSD and later 300 EURUSD you will see two seperate transactions on the screen. It doesn't lump them together into one transaction for 400 EURUSD. In such a case you can't close the transaction with 300 EURUSD first or you'll get a FIFO error since you opened it second.

I thought you mentioned that you were running a robot. If you're using Metatrader5 instead of Metatrader4 it does use position netting so you will only see one position for each currency no matter how many times you bought or sold it. In this case you don't ever need to concern yourself about FIFO. However, many people like myself don't like this position netting since you lose information about what you bought when and how much you paid.
  • #5,808
  • Dec 31, 2019 9:44am Dec 31, 2019 9:44am
So consensus on Oanda swaps for US Citizen - leave with it or stop trading?
  • #5,809
  • Dec 31, 2019 1:01pm Dec 31, 2019 1:01pm
Quoting driven18
So consensus on Oanda swaps for US Citizen - leave with it or stop trading?
I have been trading with OANDA since 2006 so I'm not yet willing to throw it out for a new main broker since it looks like that OANDA almost came up to its senses
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  • #5,810
  • Dec 31, 2019 4:07pm Dec 31, 2019 4:07pm
Quoting Hutch
{quote} I have been trading forex with Oanda since 2006 and never had any problem. Because of the lack of liquidity brokers increase their spreads during major holidays so I never trade during the Christmas and the New Year weeks because of those crazy spreads. My biggest entertainment during the last 9 years has been Brexit since it never seems to end. Trading the GBP has been the best trading pair for the last 3 years. I can't wait for 31 January
Hutch, what's your view on Brexit? I'm long pound just to play the swings and the long-term technical uptrend. I try to hedge big dates. Curious to know if you have a view...
  • #5,811
  • Dec 31, 2019 4:36pm Dec 31, 2019 4:36pm
I've been with Oanda since 2006 as well and they were a much better company back then. I can see 2 events that may have caused them to go downhill. The first was when FXCM was kicked out of the US. When this happened Oanda got the majority of their clients. Forex.com got a good bit as well but everyone I know that went to forex.com left and went with Oanda eventually. The 2nd event as I stated previously Oanda was bought out by and investment company. I'm personally gonna try and stick it out with them for the fact that I add positions to my trades and Oanda will allow me to close positions out of order since I add a small lot size to each position.
MagPI in order to close subsequent trades on the same pair out of sequence you just need to add .01 lots to each position. Example is if you buy EURUSD with .1 lots on initial entry then if you want to add to that position you just enter with .11 lots. This will allow you to close the 2nd position before the 1st position. If this ever changes then I will hunt for a new broker for sure.
  • #5,812
  • Jan 1, 2020 10:10pm Jan 1, 2020 10:10pm
Hoping the swap charges today are for the weekend as well so a triple day. I wish they would post it somewhere so we new how many days it was for.

Gonna be very curious to see how the swaps are going forward. Hopefully like a few of you have mentioned they start to really calm down. I wonder how Oanda was able to do it before much more reasonable. I hope someone starts to do it the way Oanda was doing it. They would pick up a lot of business.

Happy Happy Happy New Year everyone! Hope we have a great 2020!
  • #5,813
  • Jan 2, 2020 1:04pm Jan 2, 2020 1:04pm
Quoting Saskabacha
{quote} Hutch, what's your view on Brexit? I'm long pound just to play the swings and the long-term technical uptrend. I try to hedge big dates. Curious to know if you have a view...
If I were a gambler I would bet on no Brexit deal or on the deal that Theresa May negotiated in good faith but wasn't good enough for the UK MPs at that time.
I honestly believe that the EU will not accept to give Boris a better deal than the one obtained by Theresa May. The GBP has been on a roller coaster since Brexit. For example the trading range for the GBPUSD last year was between 1.1957 and 1.3572. Because of that I never leave a position opened overnight except on my D1 charts but I stopped trading all GBP pairs on D1 charts because they go up and down like yoyos. Since you are long GBP I hope today's gap did not affect you too much. I wish you a happy 2020 trading year.
  • #5,814
  • Jan 2, 2020 3:04pm Jan 2, 2020 3:04pm
Quoting Hutch
{quote} If I were a gambler I would bet on no Brexit deal or on the deal that Theresa May negotiated in good faith but wasn't good enough for the UK MPs at that time. I honestly believe that the EU will not accept to give Boris a better deal than the one obtained by Theresa May. The GBP has been on a roller coaster since Brexit. For example the trading range for the GBPUSD last year was between 1.1957 and 1.3572. Because of that I never leave a position opened overnight except on my D1 charts but I stopped trading all GBP pairs on D1 charts because...
I was doing great until 3 months ago and at that point I just started treading water, even down a bit. I never know if it's something I have done or if the market dynamics have changed. I guess that's the fun of trading, bit of art bit of science!

The GBP gap didn't affect me much. I'm trading the currency but being really cautious with it.

I wish I could better predict currency direction with a macroeconomic view. Anyone think it's possible to bat better than 50/50 forecasting direction? I'm just using H4 and D1 to try to stay on the side of longer term trend (or more correctly, my interpretation of long term trend). But what I have found recently is that swaps need to be taken into account in that decision too. I'm paying way too much in fees right now and need to figure out how to bring that down.

Hope everyone had a Happy New Year! Let's hope 2020 is a great year for all of us!
  • #5,815
  • Jan 2, 2020 11:02pm Jan 2, 2020 11:02pm
Quoting Saskabacha
{quote} I think I know what the confusion is. Are you using a system where if you buy 100 EURUSD and later 300 EURUSD there is only one line that shows 400 EURUSD? If you're using such a system (position netting) then FIFO doesn't even make sense. It's not an issue. In Metatrader 4, if you buy 100 EURUSD and later 300 EURUSD you will see two seperate transactions on the screen. It doesn't lump them together into one transaction for 400 EURUSD. In such a case you can't close the transaction with 300 EURUSD first or you'll get a FIFO error since you...
In regards to the FIFO. I am not worried about it right now as I dont think it effects Canadians. I wanted to understand it better just in case it comes here. I dont trust anything anymore. I hope it never comes here. And yes I do have a bot. I do a little manual stuff as well. Whenever I add to a position it just lumps it all together.
  • #5,816
  • Jan 2, 2020 11:16pm Jan 2, 2020 11:16pm
Does anyone know the best brokers as far as swap rates go? I know a lot of you guys can only use USA brokers. If anyone knows any good brokers for swaps anywhere please post here. I have been looking around. Its not always easy to find them on the brokers website. The best one I found so far is Dukascopy but I am early in my search.
  • #5,817
  • Jan 2, 2020 11:37pm Jan 2, 2020 11:37pm
Here is a pair I just dont understand. At Oanda USD/CAD -9.15 and -13.07

At Dukascopy USD/CAD -1.29 and -1.75

Also I should mention at Duka I am quoting there worst price as they have 3 tiers.
  • #5,818
  • Jan 3, 2020 1:08am Jan 3, 2020 1:08am
Quoting MagnumPI
Here is a pair I just dont understand. At Oanda USD/CAD -9.15 and -13.07 At Dukascopy USD/CAD -1.29 and -1.75 Also I should mention at Duka I am quoting there worst price as they have 3 tiers.
FX Spot generally trades on a T+2 basis (with the exception of T+1 currencies for example CAD or TRY). This is why you have the weekend roll.
  • #5,819
  • Jan 4, 2020 1:27am Jan 4, 2020 1:27am
One way of fighting back on the OANDA swap issue would be to keep posting "irregularities".
Oanda people do look at these forums, I remember seeing posts from some of the "representatives" at the beginning of this thread.
The more we post, the more popular and visible the thread becomes, they will surely not like the negative feedback. It doesn´t matter if we keep on posting other issues like trading ideas, etc..the point is to make this thread popular and visible, so it shows often in the first page (hot threads, last posted, etc.)
Obviously we can also state the good things about OANDA, like the freedom of lot size adjustment, etc. That makes the thread more credible.

I own a small company, these days the worst enemy of your business is client complaints on your website, you must do your best, behave and be transparent.
You can be sure OANDA cares if many people complain, with documented facts, as some folks did here!
All the best.
  • #5,820
  • Jan 4, 2020 6:54am Jan 4, 2020 6:54am
Quoting cuchuflito
One way of fighting back on the OANDA swap issue would be to keep posting "irregularities". Oanda people do look at these forums, I remember seeing posts from some of the "representatives" at the beginning of this thread. The more we post, the more popular and visible the thread becomes, they will surely not like the negative feedback. It doesn´t matter if we keep on posting other issues like trading ideas, etc..the point is to make this thread popular and visible, so it shows often in the first page (hot threads, last posted, etc.) Obviously we...
I don't think there is irregularities. I have been trading fx for many years and its normal for such rates at the end of the year. Furthermore, theres Christmas, New year and BOJ long holiday.
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