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  • #4,601
  • Apr 13, 2014 4:50pm Apr 13, 2014 4:50pm
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} That's the common mentality that brokers assume people have and that's why they get away with their misconduct until it gets too big and the regulators couldn't decide to ignore it, the US regulators such as the SEC and CFTC have in fact done a much better job than other countries. I have stated clearly that I have went to the change already and will take action against these crooks.
I dunno. I am not sure if you can qualify them as "misconduct". It's more of what they offered that just didn't suit your needs. They even put a disclaimer in fine print at the bottom of their webpage stating clearly that they pad their spreads and do get compensated by the padded spread for the Dealing Desk execution system:

Dealing Desk: On the Dealing Desk execution model FXCM can act as the dealer on some currency pairs. There are also back up liquidity providers that fill in whenever FXCM does not act as the dealer. Please note that FXCM's Dealing Desk employs fewer liquidity providers than the No Dealing Desk (NDD) execution option. FXCM does not guarantee that quotes, prices, or spreads will always be better on one form of execution as compared to the other. Customers should consider many factors when deciding which execution type best suits their needs (e.g., conflict of interest, trading style or strategy, etc.). For more information, see our Execution Risks.

Advertised Spreads: FXCM spreads are variable. The spreads listed here were derived from the time-weighted average of the spreads from 1. October 2013 to 31. December 2013. Advertised spreads may not be applicable to client accounts of referring brokers. FXCM strives to provide traders with tight, competitive spreads; however, there may be instances when market conditions cause spreads to widen beyond the spreads displayed here. For additional information, click here.

Compensation: When executing customers trades, FXCM can be compensated in several ways, which include, but are not limited to: adding a mark-up to the spreads it receives from its liquidity providers, receiving compensation for order flow, and charging commission to accounts that trade with FXCM's lowest spreads which are available to qualifying accounts. Under the Dealing Desk execution model, FXCM may act as a dealer and may receive additional compensation from trading.

So if you trade like millions+ sizes and/or you trade at least daily, you should go with their "Active Trader" execution system which has lot lower spread or change broker altogether if you can find better spread elsewhere or anything else that you don't like. The Dealing Desk execution system clearly would not work for you. Not all brokers are created alike even among ECN STP brokers.

Anyway, good luck!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,602
  • Apr 13, 2014 5:21pm Apr 13, 2014 5:21pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} I dunno. I am not sure if you can qualify them as "misconduct". It's more of what they offered that just didn't suit your needs. They even put a disclaimer in fine print at the bottom of their webpage stating clearly that they pad their spreads and do get compensated by the padded spread for the Dealing Desk execution system: Dealing Desk: On the Dealing Desk execution model FXCM can act as the dealer on some currency pairs. There are also back up liquidity providers that fill in whenever FXCM does not act as the dealer. Please note that...
I was in fact using the ActiveTrader platform, not the dealing desk execution. They claim they are fully STP with 15+ liquidity providers including price offerers and price takers, eg. Banks and Hedge funds.

Nah ActiveTrader is their 2nd best platform. Their staffs should have enough knowledge on whether ActiveTrader is fit for 10+ million trades or not. I was using the ActiveTrader execution and it is actually no different from the normal system, the spreads are in fact the only differences in the ActiveTrader, I was trading on a very low mark down due to my volumes and it was already at a 50% discount. Staffs at FXCM did in fact at instances say what their raw spreads are and how it should be executable.

Now the liquidity at FXCM is nothing like what I have received elsewhere which has less reputation than FXCM, but in fact it's a lot worse. The liquidity and execution does not behave like they have 15 + liquidity providers. I have inquired whether I should use ActiveTrader or speak on an institutional set-up, they said ActiveTrader would be fine, and assuming on FXCM's reputation you would assume that their best retail feed would be the best retail feed in the market itself and sufficient to handle things with minimal fuss (eg. Slippage). A lot of the staff then said, well, look, TS2 can indeed handle 10+ million but whether there is slippage, we can never know.

Under the recent FCA fine, a firm is more than required to review the effectiveness of their trading systems, and also, in fact make sure that they are doing everything they can to obtain the best execution. First, the FXCM Rep's table here is not applicable to me, I have received a poorer execution than 86% of the customers at FXCM. FXCM seems to think this is OK.

Additionally, if someone inquiries whether they should in fact use institutional set up or a robust retail set up this is what is said and classifies mis-selling:
Financial mis-selling refers to deliberate false statement made by individual, usually a financial organisation representative to sell off their financial products or services usually not profound to the customer.

There are two types of mis-selling:

Material misrepresentation
This may include misrepresentation of the commercial situation.

Suitability
The sale of unsuitable products, such as invalid insurance, is misselling, and has led to substantial compensation orders.

Whether deliberate I can pose the questions here:
1. I was told that they execute on X raw spreads and would be marked up on 0.5 pips. Now fair enough, I would expect 10 Million to have 0.3 - 0.4 pips slippage, but, in fact the slippage was 3+ pips.
2. I was told ActiveTrader has level 2 pricing on TS2 and Mobile. No there isn't there is only level 2 pricing on the institutional platform.
3. Did they commit all reasonable judgement and knowledge on whether the retail platform was suitable for these orders? Debatable to say no as they obviously didn't have an informed position.
4. For all benefit of doubt, if they were unsure whether TS2 ActiveTrader suits me, first wouldn't it be wise to push me to Pro?
5. There was an overly pressure on selling the retail platform for some mysterious reasons.
6. When I met with Reps because I could not take it anymore, simple solution offered despite all the slippage and losses incurred onto positions. (Go to the PRO platform).
7. Was unsatisfied on how this is the solution and I've been kicked around like a ball so I called the team leader of New York. Answer is I will fix it.
8. No response ever.

Enough said really, this is their business and it has not changed since the fines or whatsoever. It's still negligent, misrepresenting and misinforming.
  • #4,603
  • Apr 13, 2014 6:10pm Apr 13, 2014 6:10pm
Can I ask you an honest question: What made you decide to trade your 10 million+ positions on FXCM in the first place? I mean what is that FXCM offered to you that convinced you that their platform would be adequate to handle such a large trade size? I mean there are plenty of brokers out there that even have Institutional setup's with spell out min. and max. trade size to be accomodated. Did you get a chance to check them out before deciding on FXCM? Majority of traders who trade smaller size than that and they choose other brokers.

Not doubting you in anyway but just curious.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,604
  • Apr 13, 2014 6:23pm Apr 13, 2014 6:23pm
Quoting Forexia
Can I ask you an honest question: What made you decide to trade your 10 million+ positions on FXCM in the first place? I mean what is that FXCM offered to you that convinced you that their platform would be adequate to handle such a large trade size? I mean there are plenty of brokers out there that even have Institutional setup's with spell out min. and max. trade size to be accomodated. Did you get a chance to check them out before deciding on FXCM? Majority of traders who trade smaller size than that and they choose other brokers. Not doubting...
Would be happy to answer that. First I believe FXCM has a similar reputable that interactive brokers, a lot of the other more professional accounts Eg. CFH, ICAP EBS which I use currently will require you to pass the MiFID requirements as a financial profession. A lot of the bigger brokers will not open an account with you unless you qualify and most certainly, my deposit is not big enough to use the institutional platform of Banks Eg. BARX, AutoBahn or Citi FX so, there is no point but to look for the top retails and 2nd tier institutional brokers since the size is not that huge anyways in terms of the market.

I did not open accounts with Dukascopy because they are not FCA regulated, I will have to have the protection of my own jurisdiction if anything goes wrong and I believe it is very important for traders to keep in mind of this. If I deal with something which does not hold FCA authorisation and are regulated, it really is pointless for me to pursue a complaint or a court case overseas in a place like Geneva, or Australia, or the States.

I mean you can't spell out min and max trade sizes, because you won't be able to know the depth of the market.

FXCM first offered top liquidity and assured me it's a very low raw spread. Then there were certain inducements and reduction in commissions, and also they have the biggest volume in the FX markets per day in terms of a retail and 2nd tier broker of 22 yards. I went to FXCM for the reputation, and as they a publicly listed I thought they would be decent. However, we'll need to realise that it appears that even though they are publicly listed.

Well, no, since they are publicly listed and have offices all over the world, staffs are not well trained, some have no idea, most are rude when it comes to complaints. I mean, as a publicly listed company who has been fined by CFTC, FCA and etc and is acting like this to customers and a total change of attitude once they have done wrong. Good luck seriously, this is not proper company management or financial selling.

Do ask any questions if you want to. I hold no bias here.
  • #4,605
  • Apr 13, 2014 7:01pm Apr 13, 2014 7:01pm
You don't know rude until you have to deal with interactive broker customer support hell. Although that is only after they send you through the quest of getting someone halfway competent on the line, that understands what i am talking about. Franz Kafka himself couldn't come up with a system like this. The basic premise over there is the customer is a halfwit and must therefor be always wrong, until proven beyond any doubt. A truly grotesque experience. IB is all fine and well until there is a problem. In that case, good luck.
  • #4,606
  • Apr 13, 2014 7:28pm Apr 13, 2014 7:28pm
Quoting shrike
You don't know rude until you have to deal with interactive broker customer support hell. Although that is only after they send you through the quest of getting someone halfway competent on the line, that understands what i am talking about. Franz Kafka himself couldn't come up with a system like this. The basic premise over there is the customer is a halfwit and must therefor be always wrong, until proven beyond any doubt. A truly grotesque experience. IB is all fine and well until there is a problem. In that case, good luck.
They're all the same, once your spot their problem you make a complaint, they change and they are rude and incompetent.
  • #4,607
  • Apr 13, 2014 8:05pm Apr 13, 2014 8:05pm
Quoting shrike
You don't know rude until you have to deal with interactive broker customer support hell. Although that is only after they send you through the quest of getting someone halfway competent on the line, that understands what i am talking about. Franz Kafka himself couldn't come up with a system like this. The basic premise over there is the customer is a halfwit and must therefor be always wrong, until proven beyond any doubt. A truly grotesque experience. IB is all fine and well until there is a problem. In that case, good luck.
yes IB has the worst customer service i have every dealt with, thats the reason i left.
  • #4,608
  • Edited 9:06pm Apr 13, 2014 8:54pm | Edited 9:06pm
Quoting shrike
You don't know rude until you have to deal with interactive broker customer support hell. Although that is only after they send you through the quest of getting someone halfway competent on the line, that understands what i am talking about. Franz Kafka himself couldn't come up with a system like this. The basic premise over there is the customer is a halfwit and must therefor be always wrong, until proven beyond any doubt. A truly grotesque experience. IB is all fine and well until there is a problem. In that case, good luck.
This is Interactive Brokers USA. I don't know if it's the same everywhere else but it's ABSOLUTELY the OPPOSITE with Interactive Brokers Canada. The IB Canada's customer service is courteous, knowledgeable, professional and fast. There was one time that I had problems with the execution of a stop-loss order, the manager of the customer support team personally went through the log files and checked the time & sales in the system trade by trade according to the times that I specified to him and investigated and called me back to explain. Every time when I open a ticket inquiring about something, sometimes within 20 minutes the ticket is answered with accurate information. And many times they call me personally to answer my question. Whenever I call customer service before, because they want to pool resources or whatever, they would have IB USA's customer service rep answer my call and I would ALWAYS have to ask to connect to IB Canada until I complained and complained and complained and last year they finally segregated customer accounts between USA and Canada and have IB Canada deal exclusively with IB Canada customers. Now, SO FAR, it's smooth sailing. SO much better.

With IB USA, I totally agree with you. It takes them forever to respond and when they do, half of the time, they are either clueless and keep asking you to explain something that you have already explained 10,000 times and then give you some solutions that's totally inapplicable and useless or they make you wait forever while they check their KB and then just read from their KB like a machine that still doesn't solve your problems, very frustrating to deal with them. Until I stumbled upon this Employee's review website about their employers and read the section on IB's employees on the company then I saw what the cause of the problems was and since then, I actually sympathize with those poor customer service reps that we get so mad at. IF what they wrote on that website is true, they are just as big of victims as we are if not more. The score that they gave IB as an employer for recommending to their acquaintances, first of all, was 2/10. The working environment is horrible; the employees were never given any resources or information or help or hardware to help them do their job. One employee stated that when he was asked a question on how the TWS would work on mobile phones, he had to take out his own mobile phone to load the application on his own phone and to use that to walk the customer through the app to troubleshoot for him. They were told never ask any questions; just do what they were told, work like a machine and that's it. The company encourages them to work through their lunch by offering to pay for their lunch if they do. I used to be so angry fuming every time after dealing with them, I mean these are the people that I handed ten's and thousand's dollars of my money to and this is how they treat me? I get treated lot better than my local grocer and my bill is lot less. Now I can imagine these poor csr's must be lot more frustrated than me for being so powerless to help me. Managers were like foremans and never motivating and are totally clueless themselves. Many of them said the best thing they like is the support among the reps themselves but other than that, the morale in the company is quite low and the only thing keeping them there is basically the pay cheque. I can't remember what that website address is but you can google it and read it yourself. A major eye-opener for me.

Like I said, SO MUCH happier that I finally get to deal with IB Canada exclusively!!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,609
  • Apr 13, 2014 9:04pm Apr 13, 2014 9:04pm
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Would be happy to answer that. First I believe FXCM has a similar reputable that interactive brokers, a lot of the other more professional accounts Eg. CFH, ICAP EBS which I use currently will require you to pass the MiFID requirements as a financial profession. A lot of the bigger brokers will not open an account with you unless you qualify and most certainly, my deposit is not big enough to use the institutional platform of Banks Eg. BARX, AutoBahn or Citi FX so, there is no point but to look for the top retails and 2nd tier institutional...
When did you open your account with FXCM? Did you know they used to be an exclusively MM broker? They only started offering the Active Trader, ECN service after acquiring Gain Capital? I guess their size was very convincing, huh? And they do have very large presence. I mean they are the sponsor of many tradeshows and programs; they have their own Forex Trading TV program on CNBC, and like you mentioned, they are a publicly traded company on a stock exchange. Did you get a chance to demo trade with them before you begin? From the demo, it's already shown that their spread is not competitive and is only suitable for less frequent traders. But I guess you wouldn't be able to find out about their execution issues until you open a live account.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,610
  • Apr 13, 2014 9:33pm Apr 13, 2014 9:33pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} When did you open your account with FXCM? Did you know they used to be an exclusively MM broker? They only started offering the Active Trader, ECN service after acquiring Gain Capital? I guess their size was very convincing, huh? And they do have very large presence. I mean they are the sponsor of many tradeshows and programs; they have their own Forex Trading TV program on CNBC, and like you mentioned, they are a publicly traded company on a stock exchange. Did you get a chance to demo trade with them before you begin? From the demo, it's...
FXCM is not ECN. They are STP. There are no reliable low-spread company except for FxPro in the UK.

Everything else have ridiculously low spreads which in theory of the FX world is not very reliable.

Yes, if you put 10 M on a demo they will execute you on the spread. But if you put 10 M they will execute you 3 pips higher than the spread. So my question is, are demo accounts reliable? Not at all.

There was in fact a class action suit against FXCM for demo and live discrepancies, however, I would not actually say it's fraud, but it's serious misleading information.
  • #4,611
  • Apr 13, 2014 9:38pm Apr 13, 2014 9:38pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} When did you open your account with FXCM? Did you know they used to be an exclusively MM broker? They only started offering the Active Trader, ECN service after acquiring Gain Capital? I guess their size was very convincing, huh? And they do have very large presence. I mean they are the sponsor of many tradeshows and programs; they have their own Forex Trading TV program on CNBC, and like you mentioned, they are a publicly traded company on a stock exchange. Did you get a chance to demo trade with them before you begin? From the demo, it's...
They also say that they have 15 LPs.

Now I can already be quite sure that their Prime Broker is EITHER Morgan Stanley or Citi Bank.

These two are the most popular PBs.

Now when I dealt with a broker who has MS as their PB, I was able to execute 20-30 Million without an issue within the spread. This is a 1-st tier broker too but much less reputation.

Now, tell me really, a 1st tier broker with limited operations in the UK, Europe and some parts of Asia using MT4 is able to execute 20 - 30 Million within the spread and if not they won't execute you on jumping the liquidity whether or not market order, or 1 click. Why would FXCM 1st be unable to provide this execution? And 2nd actually ump the queue and execute you.

FCA thematic rules does say: Obtain the best. Best of the best execution possible in a firm's capacity that's how it reads. Now why on earth will 15 Liquidity providers, which is certainly the biggest in the retail brokerage industry, offer 10 Mil of Euros at 2-3 pips?

ICAP and LGC does it at 0.6 + commission. Even in FXCM terms it would onl be 0.6 + 0.5 = 1.1
  • #4,612
  • Apr 13, 2014 10:14pm Apr 13, 2014 10:14pm
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} FXCM is not ECN. They are STP. There are no reliable low-spread company except for FxPro in the UK. Everything else have ridiculously low spreads which in theory of the FX world is not very reliable. Yes, if you put 10 M on a demo they will execute you on the spread. But if you put 10 M they will execute you 3 pips higher than the spread. So my question is, are demo accounts reliable? Not at all. There was in fact a class action suit against FXCM for demo and live discrepancies, however, I would not actually say it's fraud, but it's serious...
Yeah that's the problem with the demo is that you won't be able to test drive the execution speed; that you can only find out after you open up live account with them. What do you mean that they are only STP and not ECN? Even for their Active Trader account? So even with the Active Trader account, you are still dealing against FXCM? I thought with STP, it would imply that you will be trading on an ECN? Otherwise, who else would you be trading against, if not directly with FXCM?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,613
  • Apr 13, 2014 10:20pm Apr 13, 2014 10:20pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yeah that's the problem with the demo is that you won't be able to test drive the execution speed; that you can only find out after you open up live account with them. What do you mean that they are only STP and not ECN? Even for their Active Trader account? So even with the Active Trader account, you are still dealing against FXCM? I thought with STP, it would imply that you will be trading on an ECN? Otherwise, who else would you be trading against, if not directly with FXCM?
I'm not sure how much professional fx experience you have and I mean absolutely no offence. But 10 offered is very little in the professional world. EUR/USD trades 3.6 Million per second, wonder why even I don't move the markets?

STP is different, it links you to the liquidity pool and you don't communicate with the buyers and sellers. However on an ECN you see the buyers and sellers of the broker, banks, their customers, and you directly deal with them. However, there really isn't MUCH technical difference.

STP means I would be trading with the banks and they'd be hedging me.

But let me know in a 6 trillion a day forex market, would a bank actually offer 10 - 20 euros in 4-6 pips?

Enough said lol
  • #4,614
  • Apr 13, 2014 11:39pm Apr 13, 2014 11:39pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yeah that's the problem with the demo is that you won't be able to test drive the execution speed; that you can only find out after you open up live account with them. What do you mean that they are only STP and not ECN? Even for their Active Trader account? So even with the Active Trader account, you are still dealing against FXCM? I thought with STP, it would imply that you will be trading on an ECN? Otherwise, who else would you be trading against, if not directly with FXCM?
Needless to say, this is Goldman's eFX quotes up to 50 Million I believe (No guarantees).
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  • #4,615
  • Apr 14, 2014 12:10am Apr 14, 2014 12:10am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} I'm not sure how much professional fx experience you have and I mean absolutely no offence. But 10 offered is very little in the professional world. EUR/USD trades 3.6 Million per second, wonder why even I don't move the markets? STP is different, it links you to the liquidity pool and you don't communicate with the buyers and sellers. However on an ECN you see the buyers and sellers of the broker, banks, their customers, and you directly deal with them. However, there really isn't MUCH technical difference. STP means I would be trading...
I dunno about the fx volume. As it's an OTC market, there is really no way in knowing exactly how much is traded in a fixed time interval and I am not sure if it's 3.6 million per second. I mean that might be the case pre-2008 financial crisis when the daily price range was at least 100 pips+ but ever since 2008 financial crisis, the market has been very slow and the volume is decreasing every year. Nowadays on slow days, I see EU with just couple of millions bid and offered and they take forever to be cleared.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,616
  • Edited 12:33am Apr 14, 2014 12:11am | Edited 12:33am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Needless to say, this is Goldman's eFX quotes up to 50 Million I believe (No guarantees). {image}
Hmmn, how do you know it's Goldman Sach's? I thought the Spot FX market is anonymous? Wow, Goldman Sach's is really jipping the market these days if that's the spread they offer for 50 mil? And it's no guaranteed? So what happens when you actually place the trade? Can they give you a new quote? Isn't that requotes? Isn't the spread supposed to be better the higher the trade size? My broker's spread is lot better than that and all of their quotes is firm quotes and their size cap is $10 mil. I don't know I am just a little retailer. LOL
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #4,617
  • Apr 14, 2014 12:12am Apr 14, 2014 12:12am
100M 0.6 pip wide? That sounds wrong. What does your EBS screen say for 100M in Eur/Usd ?
  • #4,618
  • Apr 14, 2014 12:30am Apr 14, 2014 12:30am
Quoting shrike
100M 0.6 pip wide? That sounds wrong. What does your EBS screen say for 100M in Eur/Usd ?
50 not 100
  • #4,619
  • Apr 14, 2014 12:31am Apr 14, 2014 12:31am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Hmmn, how do you know it's Goldman Sach's? I thought the Spot FX market is anonymous? Wow, Goldman Sach's is really jipping the market these days if that's the spread they offer for 50 mil? Isn't the spread supposed to be better the higher the trade size? I don't know I am just a little retailer. LOL
Nah, higher spreads for a higher volume.

That picture is their eFX platform. Quoting 50 million because anything below 50 is executed by ALGO hence no manual.
  • #4,620
  • Apr 14, 2014 12:32am Apr 14, 2014 12:32am
Quoting shrike
100M 0.6 pip wide? That sounds wrong. What does your EBS screen say for 100M in Eur/Usd ?
100 M EBS EUR USD at this hour 6.6 pips very well fair enough
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