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  • #9,721
  • Aug 5, 2022 5:23pm Aug 5, 2022 5:23pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} It's only someone else's fault if you're a lib....blame Trump When you say your time is limited with the props......are you referring to regulation, the firms blowing up from not being a sustainable model or just blowing up your own accounts?

regulation would require a few of these firms to die without warning. Funding talent already happened, maybe if FTMO / MFF / e8 died someone would pay attention, but i dont think those firms will die as they manage it properly.

@Andy

You b-book. Thats why that guys numbers are nonsense. No firm would survive an 80% outgoing vs 20% profit. The expenses alone would kill the entity. The higher the profit split the more likely they have internal means of making users lose. Hell, historically even 70% for a prop firm is high, in proper arcades getting above 50% you have to be a real talent.

These are retail casinos, they pay.. But its no different to the brokerages, name your favorite brokerage and I assure you they are b-booking you. They will hedge their entire book or do matching but most of the time your order goes straight into the bucket. The fact this is being re-visited is intriguing because some years ago, on this very board, it became gospel fact. We expected brokers to be against us for b-book gain. Now people seem surprised by it.

Edit: I have it on good authority that at least the top two, do have hedging strategies for their entire book that isn't just b-booking everyone but it certainly isn't anything to do with a users trading 'skill'.
  • #9,722
  • Aug 5, 2022 6:26pm Aug 5, 2022 6:26pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} regulation would require a few of these firms to die without warning. Funding talent already happened, maybe if FTMO / MFF / e8 died someone would pay attention, but i dont think those firms will die as they manage it properly. @Andy You b-book. Thats why that guys numbers are nonsense. No firm would survive an 80% outgoing vs 20% profit. The expenses alone would kill the entity. The higher the profit split the more likely they have internal means of making users lose. Hell, historically even 70% for a prop firm is high, in proper arcades...
Yes, even the so called STP and ECN brokers are on the other side. The analogy I used to give folks is like betting sports with a bookie and the bookie has the software to control the outcome of the game. This is why I've always advocated low risk, low leverage trading. When you are all-in, a sudden spike, which could also be artificial (as they control the software) blows your entire account...real and prop. Even not being all-in, if you're overleveraged it can take 20-30%. It is a dangerous game, not only are the odds in their favor but they can also manipulate the outcome.
  • #9,723
  • Aug 5, 2022 7:17pm Aug 5, 2022 7:17pm
Great insights into prop firms from everyone. I have to ask, if the end result is that your trading strategy is profitable for you then why would it matter if your broker is A book, B book, XYZ book?
  • #9,724
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:23pm Aug 5, 2022 8:23pm
Quoting ohyeah
Great insights into prop firms from everyone. I have to ask, if the end result is that your trading strategy is profitable for you then why would it matter if your broker is A book, B book, XYZ book?
If they are A book, they are only making money on commission. If they are B-booking, there is always the incentive to manipulate the game in their favor. When you win, they lose and vice versa. If you have a solid history of profitability a broker will either a. start a-booking you or b. find something in their Ts and Cs to kick you out of the brokerage.
  • #9,725
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:28pm Aug 5, 2022 8:28pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} If they are A book, they are only making money on commission. If they are B-booking, there is always the incentive to manipulate the game in their favor. When you win, they lose and vice versa. If you have a solid history of profitability a broker will either a. start a-booking you or b. find something in their Ts and Cs to kick you out of the brokerage.
What's the disadvantage for the broker in putting you in the A book in the first place? It takes up their resources?
  • #9,726
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:29pm Aug 5, 2022 8:29pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} If they are A book, they are only making money on commission. If they are B-booking, there is always the incentive to manipulate the game in their favor. When you win, they lose and vice versa. If you have a solid history of profitability a broker will either a. start a-booking you or b. find something in their Ts and Cs to kick you out of the brokerage.
Is there a difference in the trading conditions (spread, slippage, etc.) that I experience between A and B?
  • #9,727
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:37pm Aug 5, 2022 8:37pm
Quoting ohyeah
{quote} Is there a difference in the trading conditions (spread, slippage, etc.) that I experience between A and B?
Yes, a commission only broker should provide raw spreads, while a non commission broker will have the mark up in the spread. The raw spread will be variable and for most retail sizes will be tighter. However, as you get into larger sizes, spreads will be wider and slippage will be greater. It really depends on the size and the instrument as to how deep the liquidity goes. Very generally speaking, a commission only broker is more likely to be A book, but this is a very general assumption.
  • #9,728
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:40pm Aug 5, 2022 8:40pm
Quoting ohyeah
{quote} What's the disadvantage for the broker in putting you in the A book in the first place? It takes up their resources?
If you are a losing trader, it's lost revenue to A-book you. B-book, they win every losing trade, they are betting AGAINST you.
I have used brokers where I watch price come within .01 of my stop and not hit, I know i am not b booked there. Try that with a bucket shop, no way that is happening.
  • #9,729
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:49pm Aug 5, 2022 8:49pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} If you are a losing trader, it's lost revenue to A-book you. B-book, they win every losing trade, they are betting AGAINST you. I have used brokers where I watch price come within .01 of my stop and not hit, I know i am not b booked there. Try that with a bucket shop, no way that is happening.
This has been confirmed to be a real thing? Not conspiracy theory?

If it's a real thing then it seems like by default they would have to put all new clients in B book which may or may not payoff for the broker. Then at some point later move the profitable ones to A book. And then what if that profitable trader is no longer profitable, switch them back to B book? Seems like a lot of overhead.

It seems it's better to put everyone in A book in the first place and collect commission instead of micromanaging their clients.
  • #9,730
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:52pm Aug 5, 2022 8:52pm
Quoting Takisd
It is doing every trader a disservice to complain about slippage during news and suggest that your complaint is a valid complaint. We should be promoting truthful market information, not fantasy land stuff.
-I agree. I will say that the ideas about this should be different when comparing firms. Such as, for example, if firm-A is able to offer better conditions that are reasonable for all parties, then adding pressure to firm-B to improve seems like a valid approach.

It is understood, though, that one of the bigger problems with this comes from people that start complaining about things that they do not fully understand, creating the potential for firms to start responding in a negative way, with solutions that are not overly favorable for the trader (such as adding rules that prohibit news trading altogether).
  • #9,731
  • Aug 5, 2022 8:58pm Aug 5, 2022 8:58pm
Quoting ohyeah
{quote} This has been confirmed to be a real thing? Not conspiracy theory? If it's a real thing then it seems like by default they would have to put all new clients in B book which may or may not payoff for the broker. Then at some point later move the profitable ones to A book. And then what if that profitable trader is no longer profitable, switch them back to B book? Seems like a lot of overhead. It seems it's better to put everyone in A book in the first place and collect commission instead of micromanaging their clients.
95% of traders lose. It is FAR more profitable to b-book everyone and then offset or match the orders of the other 5%.
  • #9,732
  • Aug 5, 2022 9:05pm Aug 5, 2022 9:05pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-I agree. I will say that the ideas about this should be different when comparing firms. Such as, for example, if firm-A is able to offer better conditions that are reasonable for all parties, then adding pressure to firm-B to improve seems like a valid approach. It is understood, though, that one of the bigger problems with this comes from people that start complaining about things that they do not fully understand, creating the potential for firms to start responding in a negative way, with solutions that are not overly favorable for the...
The real problem is that most people trading with these firms, as Taskid has pointed out many times.......have absolutely no clue what they are doing and have no idea what real market conditions are. Folks complaining about slippage at NFP or spreads on GBPNZD at rollover? C'mon man, did you just start trading yesterday?. I think it is great that they are simulated real market conditions. While it is a real wake up call to most, I believe it shows a commitment to long term survival of the firm. Why shouldn't you have the same conditions as if you were trading your own money? To me, I'd rather trade with the firm that is closer to real market conditions. Funding Talent didn't offer real market conditions, look where it got them. People are going to lie, cheat and steal if given the conditions to do so.
  • #9,733
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:35pm Aug 5, 2022 10:35pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Of the alternatives, you just gave a list of basically the worst alternatives. Maybe people are sick of the top two, its right, but there are better options than every single one you just listed. {image} yeh...
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: OTejETb.png Size: 106 KB

wait a minute - CHILDISH COMMENTS

No one will care as they seek for the ultimate 100k account with no DD and no target at $10.
  • #9,734
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:39pm Aug 5, 2022 10:39pm
There should be a P2P website that connects traders directly with the investors, cutting out the middle men such as prop firms, signal providers, etc.
  • #9,735
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:41pm Aug 5, 2022 10:41pm
Quoting pipmaster77
The real problem is that most people .......have absolutely no clue what they are doing and have no idea what real market conditions are.
-Yes, that is what I was referring to. I agree.

Quoting pipmaster77
To me, I'd rather trade with the firm that is closer to real market conditions. Funding Talent didn't offer real market conditions, look where it got them..
-For sure. But... and this is a big fat butt, if a firm is able to offer less-than-realistic conditions and still remain profitable over the long-term, then I will happily welcome that.
  • #9,736
  • Aug 5, 2022 10:49pm Aug 5, 2022 10:49pm
Quoting ohyeah
There should be a P2P website that connects traders directly with the investors, cutting out the middle men such as prop firms, signal providers, etc.
There is. They are called PAMM accounts. Not a website, but most brokers offer them. You must do all of your own marketing to get investors. Your preferred broker, Coinexx offers them
  • #9,737
  • Aug 5, 2022 11:17pm Aug 5, 2022 11:17pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} There is. They are called PAMM accounts. Not a website, but most brokers offer them. You must do all of your own marketing to get investors. Your preferred broker, Coinexx offers them
Yeah but a simple site would be better to bring people together P2P style. It could be something as simple as showing the trader's contact information along with their demo or live account number and investor password.

There's a market for it since there are all prop traders everywhere.
  • #9,738
  • Aug 6, 2022 2:07am Aug 6, 2022 2:07am
Quoting doji
{quote} I need to put in a good word for FTUK even though I've not traded with them. Actually, I was going to. In fact, I had paid the signup fee for one of their direct funding plans via Paypal. When I suddenly (to my dismay!) learned that they had switched brokers and started a partnership with 8Cap, I asked for a refund. To the credit of their very responsive Support team, it was immediately granted
It is good you got a refund but refunding a few hundred is different and should be no problem if you used Paypal

Problem could come if you get funded and try to get your profit split!

I never had any real problem with Eightcap - did you see my post on Fundednext thread regarding possible that you are using too many indicators? Some indicators can slow or even freeze your platform.
  • #9,739
  • Aug 6, 2022 3:13am Aug 6, 2022 3:13am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Edit: To start a prop firm its like 15k upfront cost. You wouldn't need any staff for a month or two and then would just scale according to need. The staff for these firms do not earn massive amounts its not like they are fancy city executives, although a lot of them I respect a lot.
This is a start for a scam. 200K you need for 1 trader.
  • #9,740
  • Aug 6, 2022 4:38am Aug 6, 2022 4:38am
Some time ago Funded Trader sent me an email saying I had to register myself in Discord (I have Discord and look into announcements areas but not more than that).
I did nothing.

This week they sent another email

Quote
Hello Trader,You are being contacted because you recently received a payout from The Funded Trader and we do not have your discord name on record.If you are not a member of discord yet, please join here and create a ticket in the #support channel with the message “I am a funded trader and require access to the private chat. Here is my email address, [Email Address].”If you are a member already, please either reply to this email with your discord name or create a ticket....

To avoid giving them excuses to close my funded accounts I did what they asked.

I got access to a private chat where we supposedly have the announcements and chat for funded traders. Just skimmed into that and it's dozen of posts everyday of people (funded traders) asking things, sometimes silly or simple things that are in FAQs or T&C.
They are out of their mind if they think I'm going to follow that. I have better things to do with my life.
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