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  • #24,401
  • Oct 20, 2023 7:52am Oct 20, 2023 7:52am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Question is.....Will you earn more money in the 2 months waiting for a sale to save $20-$30? You could be funded and earning by then......just sayin'
Yeah that is true but with my strat I should usually take 2 months to pass a challange, and december is a no no month for me with my testing. And 100k is an upgrade in terms of accounts for me so probably will be feeling BETTER psychologically when i start ''fresh'' in the new year. Just wanted to ask about that because I do love a bargain lol.
  • #24,402
  • Oct 20, 2023 8:03am Oct 20, 2023 8:03am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} I understand your curiosity but this is all I am permitted to say. Though you might find some hints here https://garmonblogzia.wordpress.com/...hat-they-seem/
Just clicked into that link...THAT is a very scary owl lol...yours is so much better!
memento mori
  • #24,403
  • Oct 20, 2023 8:05am Oct 20, 2023 8:05am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} You should talk to tradernok
Speaking of tradernok...does anyone know why he only lets his followers see his posts now? I used to click into his twitter once in a while but now it's all private. I sent a following request but no response.
memento mori
  • #24,404
  • Oct 20, 2023 8:15am Oct 20, 2023 8:15am
Quoting Capablanca
Stats from Funded Engineer. % payout is the % of people that achieve a payout from the ones that passed the challenge. {image}
They might have twisted the stat a bit or a lot...Makes it easier if people believe there's a 5% chance they will reach the first payout. In reality, I have a feeling it may be a lot lower than that. A long time ago, someone posted a screenshot of stat published by MFF which MFF later deleted it 'cause some people found it too discouraging. I think the % to get the first payout in MFF back then was 0.27% or 0.28% something.

Though percentage may be a bit higher now there's no time limit
memento mori
  • #24,405
  • Oct 20, 2023 8:21am Oct 20, 2023 8:21am
Quoting TrAndy1
It is not worth to do a prop challenge to just get one payout (if it is not too high but if it is very high it also subject to get this payout denied). How can anyone start a new challenge except FTMO when the traders knows (s)he is trading against the prop firm ? The more I think about it the more I get the impression to avoid all props. If we had this discussion two years earlier we were just speculating the props will ensure to copy profitable traders so they can do payouts all the time for sure. But that is not the case as MFF has shown it....
I don't mean to play the devil's advocate...I understand you have lost most of your faith in prop firms now after the Bespoke incident, but let's not shot all the birds in the field now...

I reckon with AI evolving every single day, and with people paying shitload of money to hire data science graduates, it's safe to assume that all major brokers do the same thing as these prop firms, which is, they know the tolerance limit of your account, exactly where your stop loss is, your winning rate, i.e. would it be better to bet on you or against you?

So its not that much different to trade with your own account with a broker, than with a prop firm, if we are ONLY talking about the effect of the house playing against you.

They are always hunting stop loss
memento mori
  • #24,406
  • Oct 20, 2023 8:25am Oct 20, 2023 8:25am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I have no idea what you're talking about. When I clicked in that telegram link it said something like private group of such.
Sorry haha...it's just the owl...glad that I am not a cat 'cause curiosity often kills the cat
memento mori
  • #24,407
  • Oct 20, 2023 9:00am Oct 20, 2023 9:00am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} Speaking of tradernok...does anyone know why he only lets his followers see his posts now? I used to click into his twitter once in a while but now it's all private. I sent a following request but no response.
He is involved in something against a prop firm and in order to not piss in the pool he went private. To the best of my knowledge it is related to two different companies but i dont know more than that. Its why i told andy to talk to him
  • #24,408
  • Oct 20, 2023 9:07am Oct 20, 2023 9:07am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} I don't mean to play the devil's advocate...I understand you have lost most of your faith in prop firms now after the Bespoke incident, but let's not shot all the birds in the field now... I reckon with AI evolving every single day, and with people paying shitload of money to hire data science graduates, it's safe to assume that all major brokers do the same thing as these prop firms, which is, they know the tolerance limit of your account, exactly where your stop loss is, your winning rate, i.e. would it be better to bet on you or against...
you speak about comparing a only b book broker with prop, then you are correct, both are trading games (and are not connected to the smallest to the real trading markets). same is when you do direct a trading game, or lottery .... all same, only rules are called different in different games (with all trading games is same , the money you get collected from all participants is the money you use for pay out the winners and the rest wins the company).

but why chose a only b boob broker and why you want do only trading games ?
chose a normal broker who is not doing a trading game and done, and your text is complete wrong because there is differences in any little part between normal broker account and a prop trading game.
  • #24,409
  • Oct 20, 2023 9:15am Oct 20, 2023 9:15am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} you speak about comparing a only b book broker with prop, then you are correct, both are trading games (and are not connected to the smallest to the real trading markets). same is when you do direct a trading game, or lottery .... all same, only rules are called different in different games (with all trading games is same , the money you get collected from all participants is the money you use for pay out the winners and the rest wins the company). but why chose a only b boob broker and why you want do only trading games ? chose a normal...
there are very very very vrey very very ... very few non b book brokers. There is little difference between a b book broker and prop other than cost of entry.
  • #24,410
  • Oct 20, 2023 9:23am Oct 20, 2023 9:23am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} there are very very very vrey very very ... very few non b book brokers. There is little difference between a b book broker and prop other than cost of entry.
i spoke about ''only b book broker", so they do not a book, ecn, stp...... so all is inside the house as trading game.

the difference between a book , ecn, stp... and prop are so extrem, that its hard to find something that is same!!!!! thats insane to tell that cost of entry is only a difference, thats like teaching people trading forex is not a zero sum market (with costs even negative sum market).
  • #24,411
  • Oct 20, 2023 9:31am Oct 20, 2023 9:31am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} request the access to his channel here: https://tradertom.com/live-trading/#anchor-signals I don't know how good or bad his strategy is as I don't trade DAX but the trades it every day online on his channel and seem to be profitable as a trader overall (for several years) but a lot is achieved by his money management I would definitely look at his trading first or at least read his previous trading days on the channel
Thank you.

I used to be in his Telegram channel for 2 years but it didn’t help for my personal trading. I also don’t think watching others all day and get flooded with messages is what makes you a profitable trader. Further I am not interested in copying other trader’s signals without even understanding what they do so I guess that’s why I left his channel.

Tom looks to be a nice guy but he really seems to be obsessed with trading. I don’t want to life to trade, I want to make a living from trading.

Yes, I do also believe his trading success is a result of his own personal experience and money management which is hard to copy, so again no real help for me.

Maybe the best you can do I really „gambling“ it.
  • #24,412
  • Edited 9:53am Oct 20, 2023 9:32am | Edited 9:53am
It is not the same. A broker that is b-booking is not the same like prop because on the broker you can withdraw anytime your profits and for sure you can always get your "payout". On props there is a serious risk of not getting your payout or funded account or whatsoever. You cannot put them both in the same pot. The risk is huge differently here. If I was 100% to get everytime a payout and can keep my funded accounts until infinity on a prop then this would be the same like on a broker. But it is not the case. So as a result there is huge difference. I do not know exactly why but when a prop is doing b-booking only it is all from fees, and there is extra capital you get. On a broker there is no extra capital your deposit is 100% fully paid upfront. So maybe that is the reason why b-booking on a broker is much easier to do.!
  • #24,413
  • Oct 20, 2023 9:46am Oct 20, 2023 9:46am
Quoting TrAndy1
It is not the same. A broker that is b-booking is not the same like prop because on the broker you can withdraw anytime your profits and for sure you can always get your "payout". On props there is a serious risk of not getting your payout or funded account or whatsoever. You cannot put them both in the same pot. The risk is huge differently here. If I was 100% to get everytime a payout and can keep my funded accounts until infinity on a prop then this would be the same like on a broker. But it is not the case. So as a result there is huge difference....
only b book brokers, lottery, casino, prop ... all same. when someone think its not he know he should learn basics. he can also ask and get the answer, its important to understand the basic of trading style, trading product, brokers and markets to establish strategies that can use effects in right way.

prop or only b book broker or lottery and so on pay you out when they have enough money in from the participants of this trading game (and its only a game, people should learn this fact). so you pay out the winners like your rules until not enough money there, then bring new money in or be bankrupt , that is the simple game. of course you try to reduce payments by stretch your rules to your favour like any money game is doing ( less pay out, more win for you)

all this trading game style is total easy, normally possible to understand in 1 hour when onetime learned from beginning. then should be all follow up question answered by this fact automatically.
  • #24,414
  • Oct 20, 2023 10:07am Oct 20, 2023 10:07am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} i spoke about ''only b book broker", so they do not a book, ecn, stp...... so all is inside the house as trading game. the difference between a book , ecn, stp... and prop are so extrem, that its hard to find something that is same!!!!! thats insane to tell that cost of entry is only a difference, thats like teaching people trading forex is not a zero sum market (with costs even negative sum market).
my post still stands. There are very few brokers offloading any flow.
  • #24,415
  • Edited 10:44am Oct 20, 2023 10:33am | Edited 10:44am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} my post still stands. There are very few brokers offloading any flow.
thats not possible! then you are not a very successful trader or have little account size , or you would know total different. because noone would allow you to trade with them if they not even get the trade from their LP before they give you (so not even A book is then enough when you trade successful over decades). thats a simple fact!

i dont know how to say you, but your post is total incorrect. dont understand me wrong , but i have to correct this, because thats an extrem important point and with what you write here incorrect, people could total pushed in wrong directions for their future success (look at your post, even 2 people did thumb up to your wrong statement, because they dont know this fact too and even think you are right).
and maybe this helps you too to learn more about structure of brokers, looks like you dont know how good traders are managed in brokers and this is a serious problem on the way to a successful trader.

when you only have experience with pure b book brokers and cant chose prime brokers or mixed book brokers, then your experience is to small. when you are a losing trader or have smaller account size then of course you get a and b booked, because there is total no risk with you what matters.
  • #24,416
  • Oct 20, 2023 10:36am Oct 20, 2023 10:36am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} They might have twisted the stat a bit or a lot...Makes it easier if people believe there's a 5% chance they will reach the first payout. In reality, I have a feeling it may be a lot lower than that. A long time ago, someone posted a screenshot of stat published by MFF which MFF later deleted it 'cause some people found it too discouraging. I think the % to get the first payout in MFF back then was 0.27% or 0.28% something. Though percentage may be a bit higher now there's no time limit
I'm not sure if discourage. Brokers have the legal warning like this in IC Markets "Risk Warning: CFDs are complex instruments and come with a high risk of losing money rapidly due to leverage. 70.81% of retail investor accounts lose money when trading CFDs with this provider. You should consider whether you understand how CFDs work and whether you can afford to take the high risk of losing your money."

But people still dive into it because we always think we're the ones. Even in lottery tickets, which is probably the stupidest thing when we thing about odds, there not lack of money for that.
  • #24,417
  • Oct 20, 2023 10:48am Oct 20, 2023 10:48am
Quoting Trader191
{quote} your text is complete wrong because there is differences in any little part between normal broker account and a prop trading game.
Maybe you are right In fact, I think you are completeLY right

I totally beLIEve what you say

Anyway...in my previous post, I did mention there's not much difference between props and a broker account, if we are ONLY talking about the effect of having the house playing against you.
memento mori
  • #24,418
  • Oct 20, 2023 10:51am Oct 20, 2023 10:51am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} I'm not sure if discourage. Brokers have the legal warning like this in IC Markets "Risk Warning: CFDs are complex instruments and come with a high risk of losing money rapidly due to leverage. 70.81% of retail investor accounts lose money when trading CFDs with this provider. You should consider whether you understand how CFDs work and whether you can afford to take the high risk of losing your money." But people still dive into it because we always think we're the ones. Even in lottery tickets, which is probably the stupidest thing when...
ya the "chosen one" fallacy is real
memento mori
  • #24,419
  • Oct 20, 2023 10:51am Oct 20, 2023 10:51am
Quoting Tovip
{quote} Maybe you are right In fact, I think you are completeLY right I totally beLIEve what you say Anyway...in my previous post, I did mention there's not much difference between props and a broker account, if we are ONLY talking about the effect of having the house playing against you.
yes, when you speak about pure B book broker you are totally right. thats one by one same like prop, because both are trading games with only different rules.
  • #24,420
  • Oct 20, 2023 11:08am Oct 20, 2023 11:08am
Quoting TrAndy1
It is not the same. A broker that is b-booking is not the same like prop because on the broker you can withdraw anytime your profits and for sure you can always get your "payout". On props there is a serious risk of not getting your payout or funded account or whatsoever. You cannot put them both in the same pot. The risk is huge differently here. If I was 100% to get everytime a payout and can keep my funded accounts until infinity on a prop then this would be the same like on a broker. But it is not the case. So as a result there is huge difference....
Ok that's a good point. I do agree on that. But as I said earlier, if we are ONLY taking about worrying the effect of having the house playing against you, I don't think there's much difference between two. The same thing happens with major brokers too. You would never know if they A-book you or B-book you.

If we dip deeper into that, worrying about having b-booked by a prop firm or a broker, would affect your winning rate, the only scenario I can think of, is if you have a very large trading account. So large, that they are willing to move the entire market for you. I don't think it's a concern for most people here.

But I would say this, I believe stop loss hunt exists. And by that, I mean those random spikes. But they aren't done for just a few people. They are done for people who use a tight stop loss.

If we are talking about other aspects, then yes, I agree there are several key differences between props and a normal broker account. You are right on the part that withdrawal can only be made on prop if a profit is made, and if the prop firm is actually reliable and legit.

But with good firms like ftmo, your chance of getting your refund after passing the challenge (and making a tiny profit and not touching it for 2 weeks) is very high, after that, it's a free ride. You don't lose anything if you lose money on that account. It's free capital, provided if you have passed the challenge and got the full refund.

So to me, if a trader is profitable consistently, and the prop firm is good and reliable, got massive capital to honour payouts, I would still go to the prop firm, while trading my own account simultaneously.
memento mori
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